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Leaving out/omit e.g. .... เป็น

The structure of Thai sentences

Moderator: acloudmovingby

Re: Leaving out/omit e.g. .... เป็น

Postby Thomas » Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:41 am

Richard Wordingham wrote:For German,there was the Luther's translation of the Bible. That on its own is far more text than is available for Gothic!


I did not want to dismiss Luther's relevance for what is classified today (early) high German language, or his comprehensive linguistic work. My point was more that I suspect it were more the Grimm brothers than Luther using the term "deutsch" for means of "nation building". I suppose that Luther wanted to have a translation of the bible (from different languages) into "vernacular" (and used the term "Deudsch" for this means). The known succes of his printed work had then effects on the vernacular as a matter of course.

Two quotations of Wikipedia to understand my thought better:

"A famous Thai scholar argued that Thai (ไท) simply means "people" or "human being" since his investigation shows that in some rural areas the word "Thai" was used instead of the usual Thai word "khon" (คน) for people."

"The German endonym Deutschland derives from the Proto-Germanic root *theudo, meaning "people, race, nation", which was initially used as a blanket term referring to the 'common language' of Germanic people. In its beginnings, it did not specifically indicate the German language or people. In the first recorded instance of the word (late 8th century) it is used to cover the language of the Kingdom of Mercia, which was English."

Within the Holy Roman Empire (of theudo/Deudsch nation?) Luther did not fight for or against the concept of nation, rather, his problem was the definition of "Holy" within the "Empire". In contrast, the Grimm brothers wanted a "national" language according to my understanding. Both Luther and the Grimms made of course relevant linguistic work (and in essence both investigating "vernicular" of a region as their methods each).

Richard Wordingham wrote:However, I suspect the sort of 'comparative grammar' that emerges from the study of related languages is not very relevant to the topic at hand. A 'comparative syntax' might be, in so far as it pulls together characteristics that may pop up all over the world. An example is the noun-possessor syntax, which strongly reminds me of Welsh or Biblical Hebrew syntax. A second is the causative usage of ให้, which parallels Middle Egyptian. Another general observation is that adjectives are range across languages from verb-like to noun-like. Indo-European adjectives are very noun-like, while Thai 'adjectives' are generally so verb-like that I am not persuaded that most of them are not really verbs.


I fully agree with you - and it has to do with my question here, i.e. when เป็น can be omitted. Question: An investigation/study of comparative syntax, which finds out that ให้ parallels (highly likely unrelated) Middle Egyptian means generating an abstract grammar (terminology) fitting well for all human languages. Could such a work, or better "more than Indoeuropean based grammar", but also not pure national grammar, help Thai linguists?
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Re: Leaving out/omit e.g. .... เป็น

Postby Richard Wordingham » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:13 pm

Thomas wrote:"A famous Thai scholar argued that Thai (ไท) simply means "people" or "human being" since his investigation shows that in some rural areas the word "Thai" was used instead of the usual Thai word "khon" (คน) for people."

Sounds quite plausible. Those who jabber incomprehensibly aren't seen as really being people.

Thomas wrote:Within the Holy Roman Empire (of theudo/Deudsch nation?) Luther did not fight for or against the concept of nation, rather, his problem was the definition of "Holy" within the "Empire". In contrast, the Grimm brothers wanted a "national" language according to my understanding. Both Luther and the Grimms made of course relevant linguistic work (and in essence both investigating "vernicular" of a region as their methods each).

In English, Dutch already meant 'German' in the 14th century, and in the 16th it narrowed to mean the people of Holland.

As to whether knowing a more abstract grammar would help Thai grammarians, I am not sure. What little I know does not suggest that they have tried to analyse Thai as Sanskrit or Pali, though I fear there may have been some bad influence from traditional European grammar working in the tradition of analysing Latin and Greek.
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Re: Leaving out/omit e.g. .... เป็น

Postby Thomas » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:54 pm

Richard Wordingham wrote:In English, Dutch already meant 'German' in the 14th century, and in the 16th it narrowed to mean the people of Holland.

Thus, Holland was part of the Holly Roman Empire of Dutch nation in the 14th century. ;-)

May actually be that the bible translation by Luther into vernacular was at once both a bestseller and a book burned frequently in Amsterdam of these days albeit this region spoke low dutch/duits/deutsch/. What is known is that attempts to translate Luther's high "dutch" into low "dutch" did not sell better than the original even in low "dutch" speaking regions.

In the context of a bible translation into vernacular, and the reputation of Latin vs. vernacular in Europe in the time period under discussion:

My understand is that the liturgical language of the Theravada buddhism of Thailand is Pali, i.e., as far as I understand the case Pali is the language of most religious textbooks and the language used by monks during ceremonies (which I just listened without understanding the language). I'm interested in getting a little bit more information:

a) The comprehensibleness of Pali (spoken and in text books) in Thailand is high? My assumption is yes with the argument that the number of (loan) terms in Thai language with Pali roots in the fiel of faith is high.
b) A conflict (or only minor problem) comparable to Luther/protestanism around liturgical language Latin vs. vernacular never played a role in the Theravada buddhism of Thailand?
c) I assume that a Thai monk will study Pali in a way comparable to a catholic priest once he has decided to become a priest (or comparable to the fact that Latin simply was the language of catholic monks). Is this correct?!
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Re: Leaving out/omit e.g. .... เป็น

Postby Richard Wordingham » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:30 pm

Thomas wrote:My understand is that the liturgical language of the Theravada buddhism of Thailand is Pali, i.e., as far as I understand the case Pali is the language of most religious textbooks and the language used by monks during ceremonies (which I just listened without understanding the language). I'm interested in getting a little bit more information:

I've answered in Role of Pali in Thailand, as this could provoke a long off-topic discussion.
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Re: Leaving out/omit e.g. .... เป็น

Postby Thomas » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:58 pm

Richard Wordingham wrote:In English, Dutch already meant 'German' in the 14th century, and in the 16th it narrowed to mean the people of Holland.


Got today the following correction of my Thai home work:

ผมพูดภาษาไทยไม่ได้ อ่านอักษรไทยไม่ได้ด้วย
ผมพูดภาษาเยอรมัน("ดอยทช์")ได้นิดหน่อย

ผมพูดภาษาไทยไม่ได้ อ่านอักษรไทยไม่ได้ด้วย
ผมพูดภาษาเยอรมัน("ดัตช์")ได้นิดหน่อย

:roll:
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