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น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

The structure of Thai sentences

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น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

Postby NakMuay2503 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:25 pm

Hello,

I have some questions about "particles" you use at the end of a sentence.

First about "khrap": ครับ.

I know we shall use it to convey politeness at the end of a sentence, but i have 2 questions about it:

1/ In what kind of relationships should we use that particle ? Is it used when you talk to a friend or to your brother? Or is it a more polite particle to use like when talking to a colleague or a stranger?

2/ I noticed that we especially use it when the subject of the sentence is: I, for exemple: Pom Bpen Pouchay Khrap (I'm a man).

But shall we use it to if we talk about someone else ?
Like: Khao Kam Lang Kin You (Khrap?) (he is eating) or Khun Say Seua (Khrap?) (you're wearing a shirt)


Then about น่ะ (na).

I understand that it's used to soften a question, but is it only used for questions?

Last about จ๊ะ (ja)

I understood that it's used in a pretty close relationship, a thai told me one day that it adds "cuteness" to the sentence, but do men currently use it or is it more for children and girls?

Then last question: is it possible to use no particle at all? If you're talking with a very close friend would you use "Sawat-Dii" instead of "Sawat-Dii Khrap?"

Thank you !!
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Re: น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

Postby pensive » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:23 am

You wouldn't use "khrap" or "kha" when talking to family or friends. "ja" is just like "khrap" though probably less formal. That is, when talking to a stranger you would use "khrap", I think. น่ะ is used with statements and นะ is used with questions? but you can't use them to bypass your "khrap" obligations. That is, if you should be using "khrap", you would say "na khrap".

I don't think you especially use "khrap" with "I". With strangers, it is important to have enough "khraps", but they can occur anywhere. For example, it is common to start a sentence with "wan nee khrap, ...". This gets your "khrap" obligations out of the way for the moment.

Whoops. You can use "khrap" as "yes" to answer questions, so I guess this is one case in which you would use it with family and friends. If you are listening to someone speak, formality requires that you emit a "khrap" from time to time to indicate interest in the subject, but I don't know how this applies informally. My wife just says err ... err ... err.
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Re: น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

Postby NakMuay2503 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:47 am

Ok thank you,

so with a friend you wouldn't use any particle or just "ja" ? Like "Sabai Dii Mai" instead of "Sabai Dii Mai Khrap" ?
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Re: น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

Postby pensive » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:20 am

"Sabaai dee mai" is OK. You might want to throw in a "khrap" when talking to men older than you. As a f'rang, though, you have a lot of leeway. I'm sure your GF will tell you what to do in case it matters.

On the other hand, if you don't have a Thai GF then maybe you should be thinking of your Thai "friends" as simply acquaintances? In this case, start with "khrap" and then observe what they do. Whatever they say, don't repeat goo, muen, ai or ee.
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Re: น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

Postby NakMuay2503 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:28 pm

Thx for your reply, i have a thai friend im going to ask her.

It's a bit difficult to get the use of this politeness aspects! but im coming back in bkk for 1 month this summer so ill try to understand those particles better.
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Re: น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

Postby DonSena » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:31 am

ืนะ and ครับ occur in the second and third positions, respectively, of the codaphrase, which is an ordered sequence of 0 - 4 sentence particles that takes an preceding sentence clause as co-constituent.
ืนะ actually occurs in statements, as well as in questions, with the effect of expressing an observation that has a very mild implication of a yes-no question. It's the sort of question, however, that doesn't anticipate an answer. For example,
วันนี้อากาศเย็นสบายดีนะ 'It's nice and cool out today, huh? Clearly, the listener does not feel compelled to respond, at least not directly.
On the other hand, ฉันสื้อกระโปรงตัวใหม่ตะกี่นี้เลยค่ะ คุณชอบไหมนะคะ not only requires a direct response, but practically dictates what the response is. Note that the use of นะ does not always simply "soften" the question, but occasionally begs a certain answer:
เนี่ย! กระเป๋าถือนี่สวยจังแม่จ๋า ขอซื้อให้ได้ไหมนะจ๊ะแม่ ได้ไหมนะแม่ นะๆๆๆ Here,it is being used to deepen an appeal for something.
Note that แม่ here occurs in the vocative phrase แม่จ๋า and follows the codaphrase. It may, of course, occur as the sole constituent of the vocative phrase.
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Re: น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

Postby pensive » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:02 am

DonSena wrote:ืนะ and ครับ occur in the second and third positions, respectively, of the codaphrase, which is an ordered sequence of 0 - 4 sentence particles that takes an preceding sentence clause as co-constituent.

Is this assignment to a slot of the codaphrase semantical or merely syntactical. That is, is there a purpose to, say, slot 2?
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Re: น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

Postby DonSena » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:32 am

Well, there is. Thai is an isolation language, void of inflections of any kind. More or less rigidly ordered structures are the norm for such languages, and the inclusion of a four-slot codaphrase in its required position is consistent with this norm.

The occurrence of a certain sentence particle in a specific slot is a syntactical requirement. There are numerous particles that can potentially occur in each of the first three slots (and only a few in the fourth), and each particle can occur only in one slot. Thus there are those that can occur only in the first, those that can occur only in the second, those that can occur only in the third and a few in the fourth.

At most only one can be selected by the speaker or writer for each slot, so that the particles that can occur in any one slot are mutually exclusive. While their spatial arrangement is indeed a matter of syntax, there is something that makes it semantically suitable and appropriate for them to be arranged in the required sequence that they are found.

For instance, mention was made of the particle น่ะ (falling tone) as appropriate to a statement. Quite so, and interestingly enough น่ะ occurs in slot position one. So, can it then be followed by นะ (plain high tone)? Well, almost. น่ะ can at least be followed by a variant form of นะ : นา, which, of course occurs in the second position. ช่างจะทำเสียงดังน่ะนา 'Sure like to make some loud noise!' Note that the speaker assumes that the listener knows the information already, but wants to make a poignant observation of it. น่ะ is mutually exclusive with a bunch of other position-one particles, among them นิ่ and นี่,either of which indicates that the speaker does not assume knowledge by the listener: ก็จะติดไวรัสเข้ามาในคอมฯนี่นา ‘Well, you could get a virus in your computer (don’t you see)! We might write this last example as ก็จะติดไวรัสเข้ามาในคอมฯ [นี่] [นา] [ ] [ ], in which the third and fourth slots are simply empty.

Sex-marker particles occur in the third slot, while in the fourth occur any of a few particles that serve as vocatives, signaling the listener’s attention. Particles in position four are not, of course, part of the vocative phrase itself, which is uttered on a distinct pitch contour (phonemic clause).
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Re: น่ะ (na) ครัืบ (krap) and จ๊ะ (ja), when to use ?

Postby pensive » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:05 am

Fascinating, thank you. Just to eke it out a bit more (อีกอีก :D ), I think my wife says "bai la ni" - would this be "ni" in the second slot?

My wife is from Korat and, boy, they seem to work that old codaphrase to death.

I know I shouldn't put two questions into the one post, but could you give a slot-4 example, just to sheet home your previous exposition? That "na" stuff you gave us is firs-rate. :)
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