ศาลาชุมนุม

[Tgeezer]

After failing to see two words in เซปัด I thought that I should do some revision and look at what I found.
คำไทยที่มีมากกว่า ๑ พยางค์ This in a ม. ๑ course book.

The first thing I noticed was that มากกว่า refers to a verb มี so since พยางค์ is both นาม and ลักษณนาม I tried this; คำไทยที่มีพยางค์มากกว่า ๑ พยางค์

I tried it with a Thai who is steeped in English, and was told that there was no point in saying พยางค์ twice. and he sees nothing wrong with it.
So I tried เขามีมากกว่า ๑ บ้าน this met with disapproval. เขามีบ้านมากกว่า ๑ หลัง being the preferred option.


What do you think? If there is no point in saying พยางค์ twice, is there any reason to say any other noun twice, albeit in another form, just because a number is involved?

[Richard Wordingham]

FWIW, here are my suggestions:

เขามีมากกว่า ๑ บ้าน is wrong because บ้าน is not a classifier.
เขามีมากกว่า ๑ หลัง is too vague.
That leaves เขามีบ้านมากกว่า ๑ หลัง as the best option.

[Tgeezer]

FWIW, here are my suggestions:

เขามีมากกว่า ๑ บ้าน is wrong because บ้าน is not a classifier.
เขามีมากกว่า ๑ หลัง is too vague.
That leaves เขามีบ้านมากกว่า ๑ หลัง as the best option.

I think that you are right because I think I picked the wrong analogy.
After posting I wondered if บ้าน and ห้อง would have been better, for example; บ้านของเขามีห้องมากว่า ๑ ห้อง.

The verb มี means ถือว่าเป็นเจ้าของ so since I can't think of any degrees of ownership, when I read มีมากกว่า I was searching for a noun. it makes more sense to me if เป็นเจ้าของ is directly followed by a noun.

The purpose of my post is to research how cherished is the ลักษณนาม by native speakers, so that there are limits on how far they are willing to adapt to English, in the same way the position of other words is worth discussion when we come across them.

This is another branch of the puzzle of learning which I find interesting, so long as I can handle it, however I think that my kitchen grammar has probably reached its limits here.

[Pantip]

Hello,
I'm native Thai speaker.
I search about learning English page and found this page by chance.
so I'm sorry if my words and grammar in English are bad.

but I want to explain for your question.
you found "คำไทยที่มีมากกว่า ๑ พยางค์" in a highschool Thai book.
and I understand you try to adapt above sentense to "คำไทยที่มีพยางค์มากกว่า ๑ พยางค์"

First, you understand right that the word "พยางค์" can be both นาม and ลักษณนาม
but the sentence in the book "คำไทยที่มีมากกว่า ๑ พยางค์" can express the meaning completely.
In this sentence "พยางค์" is already ลักษณนาม of คำไทย so you haven't to use "พยางค์" twice.
It's overuse but not extreme wrong.
It's like you said: "My house has (rooms) 4 rooms."

another sentence:
เขามีมากกว่า ๑ บ้าน - of course, wrong
เขามีบ้านมากกว่า ๑ หลัง - one guy owns many houses.
บ้านของเขามีห้องมากว่า ๑ ห้อง - His house are many rooms.
ลักษณนาม "หลัง" bigger than "ห้อง"
and that you wonder how's degree of ownership of มี and มีมากกว่า
มี = have, belong, own
มี+มากกว่า Verb+Adj. = own+many
understand right that "มี" should follow by noun but in this case the word is separated by Adjective word, "มากกว่า" that make you confuse and misunderstand.

Hope you understand my words clearly

[Toffeeman]

I thought I had classifiers sorted out in my mind with the simple rule that if the noun and the classifier are the same word eg. ห้อง. you didn't need to use the word twice.

Looking at one of the above sentences: บ้านของเขามีห้องมากกว่า ๑ ห้อง - His house are many rooms.
I would translate that as: His house has more than 1 room.
But if I wrote: บ้านของเขามีมากกว่า ๑ ห้อง I would still translate it as: His house has more than 1 room but I only used ห้อง once.

This example seems to prove my rule but I expect like all rules there will be exceptions. I was wondering if the rule is a good base to work from and then to learn the exceptions by rote. What do you think?

[Pantip]

Looking at one of the above sentences: บ้านของเขามีห้องมากกว่า ๑ ห้อง - His house are many rooms.
I would translate that as: His house has more than 1 room.

Many thanks Toffeeman! for correct my words
I'll be careful before submit the comment later!

I'm not an English native so I try to answer as best as I can.
By the way, I found this site by chance yesterday and I'm glad to see many foreigners interested in Thai.
These days, I've many free time because of flood so my university postpone a beginning of next semester.
I'm not an expert in Thai teaching for foreigners,
I'm only Thai college student that willing to help you all guys to understand Thai language and people better (If you want)

[Toffeeman]

Cheers Pantip. We really appreciate all the Thai speakers who help us understand Thai correctly. Your written English is good, much better than my Thai would be. Any comments on my post about just using the classifier once if it is also the noun?

[Pantip]

I thought I had classifiers sorted out in my mind with the simple rule that
if the noun and the classifier are the same word eg. ห้อง. you didn't need to use the word twice.

I think your thumb rule is easy to understand! rely on the reason that shouldn't overuse words.
this topic is not necessary for spoken but so serious in (serious) written if you want some well arranged paragraph.

I was wondering if the rule is a good base to work from and then to learn the exceptions by rote.

I like these words (Are there "Like button" for me?)
I agree with you. It's very helpful in math and science.
but in learning language, especially Thai may have some differences.

I see a basis of learning Thai in Thai kids start from a rote and many principles.
(I've to tell you.. I'm one Thai who can't memorize ก.ไก่ - ฮ.นกฮูก )
so I believe Thai can speak/listen/read/write Thai because of familiarity/experience
and I'm certainly that who are always eager to learn like you and others here can use a good Thai by familiarity too

[Tgeezer]

Hello,
I'm native Thai speaker.
I search about learning English page and found this page by chance.
so I'm sorry if my words and grammar in English are bad.


but the sentence in the book "คำไทยที่มีมากกว่า ๑ พยางค์" can express the meaning completely.
In this sentence "พยางค์" is already ลักษณนาม of คำไทย so you haven't to use "พยางค์" twice.
It's overuse but not extreme wrong.

understand right that "มี" should follow by noun but in this case the word is separated by Adjective word, "มากกว่า" that make you confuse and misunderstand.

Hope you understand my words clearly

Thank you so much for discussing this. I am sorry about the University being flooded but their loss is our gain.
You English is admirable and can be improved here since where our English is incorrect we are willing to acknowledge it.
There are no degrees of ownership so มากกว่า can not be modifying the verb, This means that either the standard, modifying elements follow the word they modify, is wrong, or that there is a word missing.
I go for word missing and; คำไทยที่มีพยางค์มากกว่า ๑ พยางค์ as you said, is overuse but not wrong.(sic)
Now, with that knowledge I am comfortable omitting it, giving precedence to the noun in the numerical value. คำไทยที่มีมากกว่า ๑ พยางค์
Or as Toffeeman says; make it a rule; however I can't do things that way.

On the subject of rote learning of the alphabet; I think that by the time you realized that you couldn't remember ก ไก่ any more, it had done its job, for a grown up who is learning Thai there is great value in learning ก เอย ก ไก่ ออกไปหากิน. and all the others, for all the useful vocabulary and constructions learned from them.

[pensive]

not necessary for spoken but so serious in (serious) written if you want some well arranged paragraph