thai-language.comInternet resource
for the Thai language
Lookup:
» more options here
Browse

F.A.Q. Check out the list of frequently asked questions for a quick answer to your inquiry

e-mail the author
guestbook
site settings
site news
bulk lookup
Rayong


mostly cloudy
cumulonimbus clouds observed
89 F (32 C)
Heat: 102.9 F (39.4 C)
r.h.: 70%
bar: 29.68"
[5/21 @ 4:00pm]
Thanks for your

recent donations!

Mike A. $100!
Peter d C $50
Alan M. $50
Daniel D. $25
Menon S. $18
Daniel W. $20
Carsten K. $10
Shawn D. $20
Thomas N. $20
Jamie H. $10
Eric B. $100!
Narisa N. $120!
John Karl L. $100!
Don S. $100!
Rod S. $50
Wolfgang W. $50
S. $50
Bill O. $50
Peter B. $40
Randal S. $30
Paul G.B. $30
Xavier V. $30
Raymond B. $30
John J. $25
Reinhard F. $20
Kai Helge H. $20
Dick L. $20
Colin G. $20
Lee Cheng G. $20
Gitte N. $20
Get e-mail

Sign-up to join our mail­ing list. You'll receive e­mail notification when this site is updated. Your privacy is guaran­teed; this list is not sold, shared, or used for any other purpose. Click here for more infor­mation.

To unsubscribe, click here.

Problems with ได้ and ด้วย

The structure of Thai sentences

Moderator: daฟาน

Re: Problems with ได้ and ด้วย

Postby David and Bui » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:15 pm

It is interesting to see how the Royal Institute Dictionary sets forth the various uses of the word. I have also tried to match up the usages stated in this dictionary:
(Translations of the RID are mine)

ได้
1. . รับมาหรือตกมาเป็นของตัว เช่น ได้เงิน ได้ลูก ได้แผล;
Verb. To receive or acquire, for example, to receive money, give birth, achieve
[TL.com] to receive; to obtain; acquire; get; have got

2. ใช้ประกอบท้ายคํากริยามีความหมายต่าง ๆ แล้วแต่ความแวดล้อม คือ อาจ, สามารถ,
เช่น เดินได้ เขียนได้;
Placed after a main verb and provides several meanings depending on the context including “might” and “have the ability to”. For example, “can walk”; “has the ability to write”.
[TL.com] [v, t] can; to be able; is able; am able; may; might

3. สําเร็จผล เช่น สอบได้;
To achieve a result, for example, “to pass a test”;
[TL.com] [v, adv., colloq.] [of a test or an exam] to pass

4. อนุญาต เช่น ลงมือกินได้ ไปได้;
(receive) permission, for example, “You may begin eating”; “You may go”

5. (ไว) คําช่วยกริยาบอกอดีต เช่น ได้กิน ได้ไป; เรียกเงินหรือสิ่งที่ได้
มาว่า เงินได้ รายได้.
[grammar] an auxiliary verb indicating past tense, for example, “has eaten”; “had gone”;
[TL.com] [aux.v] [aspect marker indicating present and present perfect—action which happened in the past and continues to the present] did
______________________________________________________________

Iwasaki and Ingkaphirom (2005;2009 page167) have an interesting take on the grammatical use of the word:

"Change-of-state, or inchoative aspect, concerns two opposing states and indicates that a change from one state to another has taken place, e.g., 'it has become expensive.' 'ได้': This pre-verbal auxiliary verb indicates that some situation is realized. It is used in both present/future and in past contexts. It is similar to the English expression, 'get/got (an opportunity) to do something.' In the present/future context:"

เขาเรียนหนักมากถึงได้เป็นหมอ - He studied very hard. That' why he has become a doctor. (The authors call this a "potential auxiliary".)
เขียนไว้ดีกว่าจะได้ไม่ลืม - It is better to write it down so that I won't forget it. (The authors call this a "aspectual auxiliary".)

In the past context, they provide the following examples:

ไปถามอาจารย์เมื่อวาน ก็ได้คุยกับอาจารย์หลายๆ ท่านที่สอนอยู่น่ะนะคะ - "I went to ask the teachers . . . yesterday, and I got to talk to many teachers who are still teaching."

They further note that when ได้ is used in a negative context with ไม่, the usage is normally past tense:

แล้วตอนนั้นแบบคนก็ไม่ได้นอนกันเลย - And at that time people did not get to sleep.

Interesting, no?
David in Phuket
David and Bui
 
Posts: 2992
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Problems with ได้ and ด้วย

Postby claude06thailand » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:54 am

thanks, David ! Quite interesting indeed !
User avatar
claude06thailand
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:00 am
Location: France And Thailand

Re: Problems with ได้ and ด้วย

Postby Tgeezer » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:54 am

gob_ob_ob wrote:I'm not sure but I love to consider Thai sentences on the view that they often are in shortened form.

I personally think that ได้ in 1a context is nothing but simply "get".
You may ask who get? and get what?
Well, I will try to extend the sentence.

นายจางมาอยู่เมืองไทย [นับเวลา]ได้ [สาม]เดือนแล้ว
นายจางมาอยู่เมืองไทย [นับเวลาอย่างคร่าวๆ]ได้ หลายเดือนแล้ว
[เวลาที่] นายจางมาอยู่เมืองไทย [นับอย่างคร่าวๆ]ได้ หลายเดือนแล้ว
[เวลาที่] นายจางได้มาอยู่เมืองไทย [นับอย่างคร่าวๆ]ได้ หลายเดือน (This shows that two ได้ are not the same.)
[ถ้าเรานับเวลาที่]นายจางได้มาอยู่เมืองไทย[อย่างคร่าวๆ] [เราจะ]ได้ หลายเดือน
[If we were to count for the time that] Mr. Chang has been lived (after arrived from somewhere) in Thailand, [we] get many months.

This imply that we GET the number of duration.
But I am kind of uncertain that maybe the one who "get" the duration of living is Mr. Chang himself.

For other example sentences of the same case :

พยัญชนะในภาษาไทย นับได้ 44 ตัว (we GET 44 as the outcome of counting.)
ฉันซื้อหมาตัวนี้มาเลี้ยงได้หลายเดือนแล้ว (I GET the duration of taking this dog.)
นักวิ่งมาราธอนวิ่งมาได้ 30 กิโลเมตรแล้ว อีกประมาณ 13 กิโลเมตรก็จะถึงเส้นชัย (The runner GET 30 kilometer of distance.)

Sorry if this make you more confused. It's just a naive analysis, don't believe me much.

I don't think that it is too confusing, it's interesting, but is it worth doing?
Everything you say is true; it is your way of seeing it.
toffeeman's teacher said that ได้ precedes a time clause, eg. a preposition meaning 'for' = during, over, to the extent of. However is that needed in Thai?
Since it isn't provided for in the RID. I dare to say that it looks like an attempt to translate English, nothing here seems to contradict that view as far as I can see.
Tgeezer
 
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:24 pm

Re: Problems with ได้ and ด้วย

Postby pensive » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:07 am

Can I try to summarise?

Main verb: to get, in the sense of, to receive.
Before the main verb: past tense, or "to get to ...".
After the main verb: to be able (ability or permission).

In addition, specifying a duration, though I must agree with Tgeezer and Nan that this may be able to be understood in another way.

Finally, in idioms. For example, you ask if you may do something and you get the answer ได้.

สอบได้ I am not so sure about. The dictionary here says it is a verb, so I'm disregarding this use. Forming compounds is quite different from interpreting it as a verb or modifier.
pensive
 
Posts: 930
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:40 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Problems with ได้ and ด้วย

Postby Tgeezer » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:35 am

pensive wrote:Can I try to summarise?

Main verb: to get, in the sense of, to receive.
Before the main verb: past tense, or "to get to ...".
After the main verb: to be able (ability or permission).

In addition, specifying a duration, though I must agree with Tgeezer and Nan that this may be able to be understood in another way.

Finally, in idioms. For example, you ask if you may do something and you get the answer ได้.

สอบได้ I am not so sure about. The dictionary here says it is a verb, so I'm disregarding this use. Forming compounds is quite different from interpreting it as a verb or modifier.

I think of it as approximately an adverb, what it says depends on the type of verb and the context. That is always the case I suppose; examples are very selective.
Walking and learning have to be learnt so it means ability (เป็น showing the state of affairs is the same).
Taking an exam doesn't require ability but passing does so it means success, (the word ผ่าน means สอบได้ in the right context; สอบได้ เช่น ผ่านชั้นประถมปีที่ ๑ แล้ว ) .
I seem to prefer 'can' used in pidgin.
Tgeezer
 
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:24 pm

Previous

Return to Grammar, Syntax, and Parts-of-Speech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2012 thai-language.com. Portions copyright © by original authors, rights reserved, used by permission; Portions 17 USC §107.