ศาลาชุมนุม

[tod-daniels]

While I don't usually start topics (only stir the pots on already existing ones, lol), I stumbled across this interesting observation.

After watchin’ a LOT of foreigners learning Thai try to construct Thai sentences and speak (in language schools and on the street), it seems to me that it’s not so much the off-toned pronunciation or even our foreign accented Thai that throws Thais off. It is pausing at the wrong time in a phrase or sentence which gives the Thai an artificial “chopped up” quality.

Continuous script is hard enough to make your way thru, so knowing where and when it’s okay to pause would be a good thing.

Some of the most common “pausing errors” I’ve observed are;
*pausing in the middle of a compound word or phrase meant to be said together
*pausing after a noun or verb which is followed by an adjective/adverb
*pausing because you’re trying to remember how to say the rest of what you’re wanting to say

NOT pausing at "comma words" is just as big a stumbling block as far as having Thais understand what you're saying too. Thai is spoken with a definite cadence; there are clearly defined pauses in what's said. I call these "comma words"; because written Thai doesn't use commas.

"Comma words" are words in Thai which Thais use as if there is a "built in" comma after saying that word. Some of the ones which immediately spring to mind are ก็ แล้ว ที่ และ หรือ ว่า ถ้า. I'm sure there're more. I've been trying to do informal research on this today and in fact, I'm due to meet some Thai teachers this afternoon to discuss this very topic.

To the best of my knowledge there are NO private Thai language schools (at least none in Bangkok I've toured) which teach when it is appropriate to pause and when it is not during spoken Thai. This became apparent to me over the last several weeks when I was attending an intermediate level Thai reading, writing and conversation course at a Thai language school here in Bangkok.

We are given a set of hand outs all in Thai which contain, vocabulary (we might not know), a short story on a current topic consisting of several paragraphs, another page of questions about the topic to initiate conversation and a page of questions where we write the answers out. After we cover the vocabulary, the teacher reads the story aloud; then we go around the room round robin, each reading part of it out loud.

Very few students key in on where the teacher paused when she read it (because our brains are in comprehension mode trying to understand it as we read along, not in listening mode), so when they read aloud they don’t pause in the correct places to keep any cohesiveness to the story. When it’s my turn, I’m the exact opposite. I’m guilty of taking a BIG, DEEP breath and them not pausing until I reach a space in the text, often gasping for air as I finish reading an especially long line of Thai.

Anyway, if there is one of the Thai language pundits out there who could weigh in on this or direct me to information which shows common "comma words", I'd appreciate it a great deal. I do realize most conjunctions can be used as 'comma words', but I'm hearing a lot more pausing than just them.

Sorry this was long. .. I posted this on another forum too because I'm tryin' to get to the bottom of this.
Mods; if this is the wrong forum, feel free to move it.
Tod Daniels

[Toffeeman]

Very interesting post Tod. I practice reading every day and often have opportunity to read aloud in front of Thais and listen to other Farangs reading Thai aloud too. I have heard people pause half way through words, in the middle of an idiom and many other inapporpriate places. I know when listening to English being read that if the pauses are in the wrong place I usually have to go back over the sentence and read it for myself to get the meaning.

I would agree with all those words you have listed as being pause words. I have a couple more to add after reading a short story to see where I would pause. ซื่ง, and before แต. A trap I keep falling into is the use of the ไม้ยมก (ๆ). In written Thai there is usually a space after it and so I pause but most of the time a pause is not required. In fact a pause ruins the flow of the sentence completely.

I feel my pausing in the right places has improved significantly through comprehension. Just as it is in English. If you understand what you are reading then you will usually pause in the right places. But that has been a long journey and one that will continue as long as I keep speaking Thai.

[Toffeeman]

While reading today I spotted one of the troublesome words Tod mentions. แล้ว This word can mean many things but lets just take 2 meanings.
1. 'Already' and goes at the end of a sentence.
2. 'Then' and goes a the start of a sentnece.

I have read แล้ว the wrong way round many times. It completely messes up the sentence.

Then there is the problem of แล้วก็ meaning 'and then'. Most of the time it goes together but just occasionally แล้ว is the last word of a sentence and ก็ is the 1st of the next sentence. Now that really throws me.

[tod-daniels]

That ไม้ยมก (ๆ) really throws me too (especially because there's a space after it)!!!

It is troublesome for me when used with ที่ (which could be ที as I mix them up). Sometimes one ที่ ends a sentence or phrase and the ๆ signals that another ที่ begins a new one, which would indicate to me a valid pause is appropriate (although I dunno why they just don't write both ที่'s anyway). I read it the other day ago in a book but can't find it right now to post to see if I'm interpreting it correctly or not.

I hafta disagree with the statement "if you understand what you're reading you'll usually pause in the right places". That is exactly the opposite of my experiences in Thai language classes. Most all of the students certainly comprehend what is written; as evidenced by their test results and the in depth conversations about the topic under discussion. However it is the out loud reading part which comes out so mangled .

I do believe in the premise that with practice you'll get "better" at knowing when you can or can't pause. It's just knowing when to pause in written Thai for non-native readers is no where near as clear cut as knowing when to pause in written English. Then again, perhaps being a native engrish reader/speaker gives me a heads up, just like bein’ a native Thai reader/speaker does for Thai .

[Tgeezer]

That ไม้ยมก (ๆ) really throws me too (especially because there's a space after it)!!!

It is troublesome for me when used with ที่ (which could be ที as I mix them up). Sometimes one ที่ ends a sentence or phrase and the ๆ signals that another ที่ begins a new one, which would indicate to me a valid pause is appropriate (although I dunno why they just don't write both ที่'s anyway). I read it the other day ago in a book but can't find it right now to post to see if I'm interpreting it correctly or not.

.

Fortunately that situation can never happen. ไม้ยมก just means repeat the word (same meaning) so they can never be parts of different sentences.
ที่ที่ทำงาน can never be written ที่ ๆ ทำงาน For instance.

[Toffeeman]

I have never seen the 2 ที่'s written as ที่ๆ but I have seen it in another setting where 1 word is one sentence and another in the next.
In the Bible, where you have a list of names such as Matthew begat Mark, Mark begat Luke, Luke begat John, the doubling of the name is done with ๆ which can throw you to start with as you must pause between each time you say the name.

[Pirin]

Because ‘ที่’ is both a simple word and a part of some compound words like ‘สถานที่’, the fact that the first and the second ‘ที่’ in a sentence indicate different things is inevitably prevalent.

For example,
“5. …..ก็แค่นึกถึงทางเดินแล้วก็สถานที่ที่เรานึกไว้……”.
http://guru.google.co.th/guru/thread?ti ... f837e3346f

[Tgeezer]

I have never seen the 2 ที่'s written as ที่ๆ but I have seen it in another setting where 1 word is one sentence and another in the next.
In the Bible, where you have a list of names such as Matthew begat Mark, Mark begat Luke, Luke begat John, the doubling of the name is done with ๆ which can throw you to start with as you must pause between each time you say the name.

That sounds like a one off, it would be better with a pronoun, Matthew begat Mark ที่ begat Luke ที่ begat John ...... I wonder if all copies of the bible are the same. Someone suggested the Bible as a good way to learn Thai, I thought that it sounded a good idea, but now I am not so sure.

[tod-daniels]

Well, I'm still of the mind that pausing when you're supposed to during speaking, and especially when you're reading Thai out loud is what increases comprehension for the listener .

In the reading/speaking class I sometimes attend I can barely follow along with some of the other students when they read aloud due to them pausing between compound words or "phrozen-phrasez" . I mean it just kills the comprehension, even when I'm staring right at the text .

This is even further compounded when speaking Thai to Thais, because they already know intuitively when and where to pause when they talk. Some foreigners just blurt out the entire sentence as fast as they can. Which while getting it out there, helps very little as far as the Thai knowin' what you're on about .

Unless you're parroting just short "phrozen-phrasez', if you don't know when you can pause, take a breath, or which words you can draw out for emphasis, etc, it comes across as pretty darned hard to understand Thai.

Then again that's my observations; often after having to ask a nearby Thai what that foreigner just said. Usually the Thai answers with; ไม่รู้เรื่องเหมือนกัน.

[Rick Bradford]

In the reading/speaking class I sometimes attend I can barely follow along with some of the other students when they read aloud due to them pausing between compound words or "phrozen-phrasez".

Presumably, that is because they don't properly understand what they are reading.

But I'm sure that you're right -- the rhythm of the spoken language (of which pause-words are a major part) is an important element to delivering comprehensibility. It's also one that only comes with regular practice.