ศาลาชุมนุม

[bamboosprout]

สวัสดีครับ
ผมลองจำThai tone rulesหลายๆอาทิตย์แล้วและคิดว่าก็เข้าใจ เวลาอ่านนิตยสารผมฝึกคิดเรื่องเสียงของทุกคำ แต่มีบางคำ ผมไม่ค่อยเข้าใจว่าทำไมพวกมันมีเสียงนั้น

คำคือ

ขณะนี้

ผมเคยคิดว่าคำนี้มีเสียง low -> high -> high แต่ในพจนานุกรมthai-language.com (http://thai-language.com/id/137926) มีเสียง low -> low -> high
พยัญชนะ ณ เณร เป็นอักษรต่ำใชไหมครับ และสระ อะ สั้น ผมเลยไม่เข้าใจว่าทำไมพยางค์ ณะ มีเสียงเอก

ลักษณะ
อีกครั้งหนึ่ง อักษร ณ เณร เป็นอักษรต่ำใช่ไหม และพยางค์นี้มีสระ อะ ที่สั้น ผมเลยไม่เข้าใจว่าทำไมในพจนานุกรมมันมีเสียงเอก ผมคิดว่ามันควรมีเสียงตรี

สวัสดี
อักษร ว แหวน เป็นอักษรต่ำเหมือนกันใช่ไหมครับ และพยางนี้มีสระ อัอ ที่สั้น ผมเลยเคยคิดว่าพยางค์นี้มีเสียงตรี แต่ผมผิด พจนานุกรมบอกว่ามันมีเสียงเอก

ผมคิดว่าผมผิดเรื่องคำนี้ทุกคำ ถ้าใครอธิบายผมได้ จะช่วยผมมากๆเลย ขอบคุณครับ

[David and Bui]

Congratulations on the excellent progress you have attained in the Thai language in such a short period of time. With respect to the tone question, please refer to the two articles on this site concerning "consonant clusters":

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/double-consonants
http://www.thai-language.com/ref/cluster-tone

These articles were written by Glenn Slayden, the creator of T-L.com.

The word ขณะ is composed of a "non-conforming initial consonant cluster" and it can be found as an example of this type in the second article.

The first letter of the cluster ข is a high class consonant; the second ณ is a low class consonant and is also a "sonorant".

(The definition of a "sonorant" is found at http://www.thai-language.com/ref/glossary as "Consonant sound which can “carry a tune:” ng, n, m, y r, l, w. This includes the Thai consonants { ง น ม ย ร ล ว ญ ณ ฬ }. All sonorants are low-class consonants—memorize this important fact. Some linguists may use the term “resonant” to refer to such consonants.")

With this combination, the tone profile of the first consonant governs the tone of the cluster as a whole and in combination with a short vowel, results in a low tone.

Contrast this with a similar sounding word คณะ. Here the both consonants are low class and the resulting word tone is high.

"ลักษณะ" follows the same pattern as ขณะ whereby the first consonant in the cluster is high class, the second low class and a sonorant; the result is a low tone for the cluster. "สวัสดี" likewise follows this pattern. It is important to note that the cluster rules apply whether or not the cluster is pronounced with an /a/ sound between the two consonants of the cluster. Therefore, the cluster กล in กลับ is pronounced without an /a/ sound between them, but the "non-conforming consonant cluster" rule applies.

I think you will find the articles helpful in your understanding of pronunciation of the various kinds of consonant clusters in Thai.

[David and Bui]

In some textbooks the class of "sonorants" (ง น ม ย ร ล ว ญ ณ ฬ) is defined as low class consonants which do not have a sound equivalent as a high class consonant. Thus, ค is a low class consonant, but it has a high class equivalents as ข; ท and ธ are low class consonants, but they have two high class equivalents in ถ and ฐ.

[bamboosprout]

ขอบคุณมากเลยครับ
Now I understand that ขณะ is a consonant cluster, I thought that if it had the sound อะ between the two consonants, it was no longer considered a cluster, but I see that I was wrong. Now I understand.
ขอบคุณจริงๆสำหรับคำอธิบายครับ

[Pirin]

.....

[David and Bui]

Khun Pirin,

Sorry, I don't have any articles in English explaining the exceptions. My source for these rules is "หลักภาษาไทย" by กำชัย ทองหล่อ, published 2545, pages 80-85. The exceptions he notes are "กฤษณะ [กฺริดสะนะ], วิษณุ [วิดสะนุ], and อัศวิน [อัดสะวิน].

My understanding is that to understand some exceptions to the cluster rules, one needs to look at the Sanskrit, Pali, or Khmer origins of the words. To tell a new student that in order to understand some of the aberant pronunciations, he or she must learn Pali and Sanskrit might be enough to push him or her over the edge of sanity.

The only English language book that I know of that spells out these rules in great detail is "Reading and Writing Thai" by Marie-Hélène Brown, but I believe that this book has long been out of print.

Let's ask other participants in these forums for their suggestions. Thanks.

[Toffeeman]

Let's ask other participants in these forums for their suggestions. Thanks.

I haven't tried to find a rule for the exceptions to consonant cluster rules. To me I view them as irregular words. When I learnt French we had to learn a load of irregular verbs and how they all conjugate differently. English has way more than French does. So I just expect there will be some words in every language that don't conform to grammar rules and I learn them individually. Eg ขโมย should be be 'low/rising' but it is 'low/mid'.

[bobcat321]

Eg ขโมย should be be 'low/rising' but it is 'low/mid'.

Why should ขโมย be low/rising?

Edit: Ah because ม is a sonorant

[David and Bui]

Let's ask other participants in these forums for their suggestions. Thanks.

I haven't tried to find a rule for the exceptions to consonant cluster rules. To me I view them as irregular words. When I learnt French we had to learn a load of irregular verbs and how they all conjugate differently. English has way more than French does. So I just expect there will be some words in every language that don't conform to grammar rules and I learn them individually. Eg ขโมย should be be 'low/rising' but it is 'low/mid'.

Toffeeman,

I don't think "ขโมย" is an exception. Compare two potential spellings:

ขโมย - this pronunciation is "ka[low]-moi[mid]"
โขมย - this pronunciation would be "ka[low]-moi[rising]

There are other examples of this phenomenon.

เสมียน - sa[low]-mien[rising]
สะเมียน - if this were a word it would be sa[low]-mien[mid]

[Toffeeman]

I don't think "ขโมย" is an exception. Compare two potential spellings:

ขโมย - this pronunciation is "ka[low]-moi[mid]"
โขมย - this pronunciation would be "ka[low]-moi[rising]

There are other examples of this phenomenon.

เสมียน - sa[low]-mien[rising]
สะเมียน - if this were a word it would be sa[low]-mien[rising]

I see where you are coming from but when I am in a conversation I'm not thinking about spelling. In fact I had to look up the spelling before writing it. To get the tone right in a conversation I have a split second to decide to put a rising tone on the last syllable or not. I have memorized this word as a word that doesn't rise on the 2nd syllable.