ศาลาชุมนุม

[sarinya]

Hello everyone

As a Thai teaching I understand the tone mark and sound is difficult to understand and remember.
And in the tone mark is different as the class consonants divided;moreover, its still have more rule of live syllable and dead syllable.

So I think I want to help you guys to practice about the tone.

You can post the question that you wan to learn and then I will explain.

Have a nice day

Sarinya

[Tommo]

If there is a tone mark then theres no problem.

But I still have to take a second or two if there is not, I think that I just guess when i'm talking naturally in thai. I think i have learnt to say things correctly just by mimicking the sound.

[sarinya]

Hi Khun Tommo

Yes that's right to mimicking sound.

Further information about tone that is more help is tone rule.

1.Mid Consonant + live syllable = Mid tone
Ex. บ+น =บน Bon (on)
2.Mid Consonant + dead syllable = low tone
Ex.บ+อ+ก=บอก Bork (tell)
3.High consonant + live syllable = rising tone
Ex.ผ+ม =ผม Pom (I for man,Hair)
4. High Consonant + live syllable = low tone
Ex. ข+ ัว+ด =ขวด Khuad (bottle)
5. Low Consonant + short vowel and dead syllable = high tone
Ex. พ+(โ-ะ)+บ =พบ Pob (meet)
6. Low consonant + long vowel and dead syllable = falling tone
Ex.พ+ ู + ด = พูด Pood (Talk,Speak)

You will fun with Thai language if you lean more and more.

Have a nice day
Sarinya

[dharmathai]

Hi Khun Tommo

Yes that's right to mimicking sound.

Further information about tone that is more help is tone rule.

1.Mid Consonant + live syllable = Mid tone
Ex. บ+น =บน Bon (on)
2.Mid Consonant + dead syllable = low tone
Ex.บ+อ+ก=บอก Bork (tell)
3.High consonant + live syllable = rising tone
Ex.ผ+ม =ผม Pom (I for man,Hair)
4. High Consonant + live syllable = low tone
Ex. ข+ ัว+ด =ขวด Khuad (bottle)
5. Low Consonant + short vowel and dead syllable = high tone
Ex. พ+(โ-ะ)+บ =พบ Pob (meet)
6. Low consonant + long vowel and dead syllable = falling tone
Ex.พ+ ู + ด = พูด Pood (Talk,Speak)

You will fun with Thai language if you lean more and more.

Have a nice day
Sarinya

this is wrong

6. Low consonant + long vowel and dead syllable = falling tone
Ex.พ+ ู + ด = พูด Pood (Talk,Speak)

It is mai toe sound ( ้ )
when you mix a long vowel with dead consonant at the end of a word which begins with a low consonant family letter, then the result will be "toe" sound, not "aek" sound.Also the tone symbosl will have a sound one step higher than the symbol used when mixed with high consonants.
here are the list of tone symbols for middle consonants
กอ ก่อ ก้อ ก๊อ ก๋อ
่ ่ ้ ๊ ๋ is the order to follow when mixed with middle tone consonants you get the same tone as indicated by the symbol
when you mix a high consonant with these symbols (called roop wanayukt), then you also get the same tone as indicated by the symbol. You cant use the highest tone ( ๋ ) with high consonants, because they already have that sound as their inherent nature, and there is no higher sound than mai jatawa ( ๋ ).
But when you use low consonants and mix them with tone symbols ( ่ ้ ๊ ๋ ), then you must pronounce the tone one step higher in the list of tone symbols/sounds
heres an example using the letter mor ma and tone symbols;
มา+ ่ = ม่า = ้ sound (ไม้โท เสียงโท)
มาด = ้ sound (เสียงโท)
มัด a low consonant with a short vowel and dead consonant makes tree sound the third of the 4 symbols and fourth highest of all the 5 tones ( ๊ เสียงตรี)
when a low consonant is used with no dead consonants, then it has a middle tone sound - they are not pronounced low, they are only called low consonants because of how they react with the tone symbols.

[dharmathai]

i just noticed my mistake.. oyu call mai aek "falling" tone in enlglish.. this confused me, as for me the sound of Aek is more of a medium toned, but imperative, commanding sound (as in the order "come here!") - i dont understand how you can call this a low sound it is a loud and commanding sound.. in my private teaching of people i call this tone "imperative", as it sounds so commanding and loud.
I apologise for my mistake however.
last synopsis;
ก + ้ is the same sound as ค + ่
ก้า + ค่า + ม่า have all the same tonal sound
the only way to get the lowest sound with low consonants is with live consonants, you do this by preceding the consonant with h (ห) as in hmag (หมาก), which means betel nut

[simonbournemouth]

i just noticed my mistake.. oyu call mai aek "falling" tone in enlglish.. this confused me, as for me the sound of Aek is more of a medium toned, but imperative, commanding sound (as in the order "come here!") - i dont understand how you can call this a low sound it is a loud and commanding sound.. in my private teaching of people i call this tone "imperative", as it sounds so commanding and loud.

Hi Spencer, and welcome to the forums.

Yes, it can be quite confusing, learning Thai as a foreign language, students generally learn the English terms for the tone names, which don't correspond to how they are known in Thai.

In English the tones are known as mid, low, falling, high and rising. These names roughly correspond to the frequency (pitch) that the voice produces.



But these English tone names can be a little misleading. For example, the falling tone in fact rises a little before it falls. The rising tone dips before it rises.

In Thai the tones are known as middle, one, two, three, four. Wouldn't it make things a lot simpler and avoid confusion if the tones were referred to the same in English?

[r2d2]

[IMG] http://www.thai-language.com/msg_img/Tone.jpg [/IMG]

[David and Bui]

In Thai the tones are known as middle, one, two, three, four. Wouldn't it make things a lot simpler and avoid confusion if the tones were referred to the same in English?

Simon,

I think this is very wise advice. Using the five traditional tone names tends to prejudice the learner to have an a priori attitude toward the tones which may not reflect the sounds which are actually produced by Thai people. Using a "middle, one, two, three, four" naming convention seems to me a much more neutral and effective teaching method.

Furthermore, individual Thais employ multiple variations around their expression which tends to create a set of acceptable tone packages. In other words, there is no one method of tone expression which is valid, barring all others. Thais know what is "inside the box" of common Thai expression and which expression makes one sound like a farang.

This is especially true with respect to various dialects and regions throughout the country. I used to oversimplify and say, for example, that a falling tone in Central Thai becomes a rising tone in Southern Thai. Now I believe that both are valid, and geographically diverse, expressions of "เสียงโท".

What do you think?

[David and Bui]

http://www.thai-language.com/msg_img/Tone.jpg

คุณอาร์ธู

I like your formulation very much. One question for you:

What does this mean, "presence of a tone mark breaks the quality of the syllable"? Specifically, what does the word "quality" mean in this context?

Question for all:

Given the chart Simon presented which attempts to reflect tones, would the chart be differently applied to short and long syllables or are the tonal expressions the same for both?

[r2d2]

คุณอาร์ธู

I like your formulation very much. One question for you:

What does this mean, "presence of a tone mark breaks the quality of the syllable"? Specifically, what does the word "quality" mean in this context?

The idea to display tone rules in a table derives from a German text book on this matter ( "Thai zum Selbststudium"). In German, as in English, the nomenclatur of tones is descriptive but not in accordance with the Thai names (see the graphics from the German text book).

My own idea was that already explained by Khun Simon ("In Thai the tones are known as middle, one, two, three, four. Wouldn't it make things a lot simpler and avoid confusion if the tones were referred to the same in English?"). Actually, giving the tone numbers renders the table rather logical (and easy to memorize - at least for me).

"presence of a tone mark breaks the quality of the syllable" means that in the presence of a tone mark the tone mark (and nothing else - or - nothing else than A [class of initial consonant] - thus, not B ["quality of the syllable"]) determines the tone (=breaks rules of kham pen/tai, length of syllable).

Quality may be a direct translation of the legend of the German table in the text book mentioned above (thus, Quality = Qualitaet).

P.S.: 'Quality of the Syllable' is also a legend of the table; see row B. [IMG] http://www.thai-language.com/msg_img/Tone.jpg [/IMG]