ศาลาชุมนุม

[simonuk]

Hi

Im hoping someone may be able to offer some advice on how i can improve my ability to identify the difference between ป and บ.
Whilst i can pronounce them well enough ( according to my gf ) and i can feel them in my mouth to be correct when i use them, i still struggle to pick up on them whilst listening. Of course normally i can make assumptions based on context but after spending large amounts of very frustrating time listening to the FSI and Benjawin Poomsam Becker attempts to teach it im still unable to recongnise the differnce most of the time!
Its driving me nuts!!

[r2d2]

Both pairs บ/ป and ด/ต are representing plosives which are not aspirated. บ/ด are, at least in theory, the voiced pairs of the unvoiced counterparts ป/ต. I think most of the visitors here have at least some problems to discern them. What to do.

I thought it might be helpful to look on the English thapsap list to find English terms for which the RID recommends to use the letters บ/ป/ด/ต each. So here it is what is stated there:

English Consonant As Initial Consonant As Final and Silent Consonant
use example use example

b บ base เบส บ Gibb กิบบ์
d ด dextrin เดกซ์ทริน ด Dead Sea เดดซี
p พ paraola พาราโบลา ป capsule แคปซูล
t ท Tasmania แทสเมเนีย ต Kuwait คูเวต
trombone ทรอมโบน

An issue is, what can be seen directly here, that most ps and ts used in English terms initially are considered to be aspirated (but not non-aspirated, voiceless consonants). So, you have to go into the footnotes of p and t to find samples where an initial p and t is considered to be non-aspirated:

footnote p:

พ” should be used for p except in certain cases where Thais are accustomed to use “ป”. These cases include the letter groupings: super-, -pa, -pean, -per, -pia, -pic, -ping, -pion, -po, -pus และ –py. p เมื่อเป็นพยัญชนะต้นให้ใช้ พ โดยตลอด ยกเว้นกลุ่มพยัญชนะ บางกลุ่มที่ไทย นิยมใช้เสียง ป ให้ใช้ ป ดังนี้ super-, -pa, -pean, -per, -pia, -pic, -ping, -pion, -po, -pus และ –py
superman ซูเปอร์แมน /suuM bpuuhrM maaenM/
Europa ยูโรปา /yuuM ro:hM bpaaM/
bumper บัมเปอร์ /bamM bpuuhrM/
Topic ทอปปิก /thaawpF bpikL/
shopping ชอปปิง /chaawpF bpingM/
hippy ฮิปปี /hipH bpeeM/
hippo ฮิปโป /hipH bpo:hM/
olympus โอลิมปัส /o:hM limM bpatL/

footnote t

When t is the initial consonant in a syllable, one should always use “ท” except in the case of certain consonant clusters where Thais are accustomed to use the sound “ต”. In these cases one should use the letter “ต”. These clusters include: anti-, auto-, inter-, multi-, photo-; ta, -ter, -ti, -tic, -ting, -tis, -to, -ton, - tor, -tre, - tum, -tus และ –ty, as in: t เมื่อเป็นพยัญชนะต้น ใช้ ท โดยตลอด ยก เว้นกลุ่มพยัญชนะบางกลุ่มที่ไทย เรานิยมใช้เสียง ต ให้ใช้ ต ดังนี้ anti-, auto-, inter-, multi-, photo-; ta, -ter, -ti, -tic, -ting, -tis, -to, -ton, - tor, -tre, - tum, -tus และ -ty เช่น
antibody แอนติบอดี /aaenM dtiL baawM deeM/
intercom อินเตอร์คอม /inM dtuuhrM khaawmM/
computer คอมพิวเตอร์ /khaawmM phiuM dtuuhrM/
quantum ควอนตัม /khwaawnM dtamM/
zygomata ไซโกมาตา /saiM go:hM maaM dtaaM/

Do not know whether this helps but this would be my idea to offer help to your question - sorry for not having some better idea.

[Richard Wordingham]

The problem is that English word-initial /b/ and /d/ are often actually unvoiced, but having most of the characteristics of typical voiced consonants except the actual voicing. I remember a Polish professor who teaches Poles English saying that he had to teach Poles to reduce the voicing of /b/, /d/ and /g/ when speaking English.

[Peter4]

... how i can improve my ability to identify the difference between ป and บ ...
Its driving me nuts!!

Yes, me too, at first.
And many Thais are lazy to speak clearly ป

Here is one suggestion: watch the speaker's mouth.
The position of the lips change -- often quite dramatically.
For ป the lips are pursed outward, as in a kiss.
บ the lips are just relaxed.

Of course, if you are only listening to audio files, you won't be able to see that.
Maybe you find a Thai lady nearby?
Tell her you want to practice ป

(Ah ... but don't say anything about the "kiss" part, because Thais don't like to kiss.
Traditionally they just rub nose to cheek.)

[jariya76]

We actually have this phoneme (ป) in American English, though most people don't realize it. (Sorry I'm not sure if it holds true for other Englishes - I'd like to know from a native, though) In the word "people" for example or "supper" the p in the middle of these words is not aspirated the way a P is at the beginning of a word. Say "supper" a couple of times and feel how the second P is coming out of your mouth without any aspiration or puff of air. Then just try to cut off the first part and say "-per" the way you pronounced it in supper. This is how I trained myself and it works most of the time but I still have trouble with ป with certain vowel sounds. The word แปด (8) gets me every time. I think it has something to do with the vowel แ for me. If these words don't quite do it for you, try others with medial P, like dimple, happy, or napping, pronouncing the whole word first and then dropping the first syllable.

[jariya76]

Sorry - I started running off-topic and was responding to the pronunciation aspect and not the ability to distinguish ป from บ when spoken. Others have mentioned the fact that there is slight voicing with บ that you may or not be able to pick up on. There is also the slightly explosive (albeit unaspirated) aspect of ป that I actually love. It's almost like an discreet little lip kiss of a sound. Did you ever notice how many Thai nicknames begin with ป or ต? When Thais pronounce them they sound so sweet and clear without having to reach back into the vocal chords to get the sound out. They just pop off the lips or the tip of the tongue. Anyway back to your struggle, how does this problem present itself? When you are hearing them in a conversation and the context is not clear enough so you confuse a ป word with a บ word?, Or, are you not able to do dictation with unfamiliar words? If you are fairly new to Thai, I would say time will take care of everything. The subtle difference between the sounds will be slowly but surely sorted out in your head and the context will let you know which word you actually heard.

[buckjoy]

"nose to cheek" = หอมแก้ม

[Chris Pirazzi]

Hi

Im hoping someone may be able to offer some advice on how i can improve my ability to identify the difference between ป and บ.
Whilst i can pronounce them well enough ( according to my gf ) and i can feel them in my mouth to be correct when i use them, i still struggle to pick up on them whilst listening. Of course normally i can make assumptions based on context but after spending large amounts of very frustrating time listening to the FSI and Benjawin Poomsam Becker attempts to teach it im still unable to recongnise the differnce most of the time!
Its driving me nuts!!

There's quite a bit of b/bp/p and d/dt/d advice that may help you here:

http://slice-of-thai.com/consonant-sounds/

in particular

http://slice-of-thai.com/consonant-sounds/#bpbp

- Chris Pirazzi

[Passerby]

Hi

Im hoping someone may be able to offer some advice on how i can improve my ability to identify the difference between ป and บ.
Whilst i can pronounce them well enough ( according to my gf ) and i can feel them in my mouth to be correct when i use them, i still struggle to pick up on them whilst listening. Of course normally i can make assumptions based on context but after spending large amounts of very frustrating time listening to the FSI and Benjawin Poomsam Becker attempts to teach it im still unable to recongnise the differnce most of the time!
Its driving me nuts!!

Most of my students have problem pronouncing บ ป ด ต. My suggestion are;
For both บ ป you start with closing you lips in the comfortable position, do not pucker up like kissing. Then you push out the sound like 'ออ อา อี อู เอา ไอ " etc.
First practice pushing the อ sounds out, and then repeat them by closing your lips.
For บ, do not press your lips too hard, press you lips lightly, and open them to let the sound out.
For ป, press your lips firmer and do exactly the same as the former.
If you can't achieve the desired result, you may have press your lips too hard hard or to lightly. Adjust the pressure for one or the other so that you find the right range.

For ด , lift the tip of your tongue to touch the area between your gum and the ceiling , and push out the sound.
For ต , lift the tip of your tongue to touch the back of your upper teeth, and push out the sound.

Try to relax your tongue and your lips in all cases.

I hope these techniques will help.

[chevil]

Hi,
I know exactly the problem you have. It is straightforward enough to pronounce the difference between the two phonemes. However, hearing the difference is obviously a little harder for native English speakers.

To my ear, /b/ sounds much 'softer' and 'bouncy', while /p/ has a much 'harder' sound. You can generally hear a 'soft' burst after the release of /b/ due to equalization of the pressure between the mouth and the air (as the voicing of /b/ creates a higher pressure inside the mouth). There is also a burst after /p/, but it is a 'hard' burst.

Also, you can often perceive the difference based on the following vowel. Vowels after phonemes /p/ and /t/ generally pick up a central onglide. This is especially noticeable before high vowels - ask a Thai to pronounce /pii/ 'year', and it might sound a little like /pei/ to your ear (this might be approximated by IPA /pɨi/ or /pɪi/, although to my ear the glide has a certain amount of velarization as well).

Let me know if this makes no sense .