ศาลาชุมนุม

[Aulok]

According to 'Thai reference Grammar' two Thai words เขา 's/he' and เขา 'hill' are pronounced in different tones: the former is 'plain high' and the latter is 'rising'. It has detailed description about this. I failed to find any evidence for this in the dictionary. Who can find some support for his opinion? His examples: respect=mid, knee=low, enter=falling, feature=high, he=plain high, hill=rising.

[ttthai]

เขา 's/he' and เขา 'hill' have the same tone. In Thai, there are only five tones which are mid, low, falling, high, and rising. I've never heard of "plain high" tone.

เคา (mid) รพ = respect
เข่า (low) = knee
เข้า (falling) = enter
เค้า (high) โครง = feature
เขา (rising) = he or hill

[pensive]

However, 'he' is usually pronounced with a 'high' tone, where 'high' is the standard 'high' tone. (Well, really, there are two standard high tones, which no one ever talks about.) But common words with a short vowel and rising tone are often pronounced with a high tone. (This isn't a dictionary matter - the dictionary reports the tone that is intended.)

But it is still an open issue whether both 'hill' and 'he' have the same tone.

[jariya76]

Technically they have the same tone, but practically they don't. Language must always be seen this way - there are the "rules" and then there is the spoken reality. The only tme I've ever heard เขา ไหม and ฉัน pronounced according to the actual tone rules is when they are being read out loud by school children or by hypercorrect teachers. I think the fairest thing a dictionary could do would be to put BOTH pronunciations and then explain when and why. In the U.S. we never hear mitten pronounced as anything but /miʔ n/ with a glottal stop instead of a /t/ or even a /d/ which is usually what happens in US English to medial /t/. In my ESL classes I am constantly having to tell students well, it's SPELLED this way but we actually SAY it this way.

[Aulok]

Technically they have the same tone, but practically they don't. Language must always be seen this way - there are the "rules" and then there is the spoken reality. The only tme I've ever heard เขา ไหม and ฉัน pronounced according to the actual tone rules is when they are being read out loud by school children or by hypercorrect teachers. I think the fairest thing a dictionary could do would be to put BOTH pronunciations and then explain when and why. In the U.S. we never hear mitten pronounced as anything but /miʔ n/ with a glottal stop instead of a /t/ or even a /d/ which is usually what happens in US English to medial /t/. In my ESL classes I am constantly having to tell students well, it's SPELLED this way but we actually SAY it this way.

Thanks. Yes, the British [t] is usually pronounced as [ʔ] in an unstressed syllable at the end of a word when cooccurring with a nasal [n]. It is also pronounced as a flap [ɿ] in front of [ə] in an unstressed syllable.

[David and Bui]

Technically they have the same tone, but practically they don't. Language must always be seen this way - there are the "rules" and then there is the spoken reality. The only tme I've ever heard เขา ไหม and ฉัน pronounced according to the actual tone rules is when they are being read out loud by school children or by hypercorrect teachers. I think the fairest thing a dictionary could do would be to put BOTH pronunciations and then explain when and why. In the U.S. we never hear mitten pronounced as anything but /miʔ n/ with a glottal stop instead of a /t/ or even a /d/ which is usually what happens in US English to medial /t/. In my ESL classes I am constantly having to tell students well, it's SPELLED this way but we actually SAY it this way.

Note that the T-L.com dictionary does show alternative pronunciations for a number of words, including those shown at http://www.thai-language.com/ref/irregular-words . Another such word is เจรจา which the RID shows "เจน-ระ-จา" but which most Thai people pronounce เจ-ระ-จา. There are many others with alternative pronunciations; take shortened words, for example, มหาวิทยาลัย often pronounced มะ-หา-ลัย by Thai students or พิจารณา which should be pronounced พิ-จา-ระ-นา but is often pronounced พิด-นา by parliamentarians.

If you find any additional words in the dictionary which should have an alternative pronunciation, please send a note to Glenn via "e-mail the author".

[copy]

According to 'Thai reference Grammar' two Thai words เขา 's/he' and เขา 'hill' are pronounced in different tones: the former is 'plain high' and the latter is 'rising'. It has detailed description about this. I failed to find any evidence for this in the dictionary. Who can find some support for his opinion? His examples: respect=mid, knee=low, enter=falling, feature=high, he=plain high, hill=rising.

When I practiced reading with my mom she used to make me pronounce เขา (him/her) with the rising tone. As Jariya said though, it's pronounced with high tone in everyday conversation. In fact, in comic books most of the time they'll write เค้า instead of เขา and มั้ย instead of ไหม and ชั้น instead of ฉัน.

[Passerby]

Note that the T-L.com dictionary does show alternative pronunciations for a number of words, including those shown at http://www.thai-language.com/ref/irregular-words . Another such word is เจรจา which the RID shows "เจน-ระ-จา" but which most Thai people pronounce เจ-ระ-จา. There are many others with alternative pronunciations; take shortened words, for example, มหาวิทยาลัย often pronounced มะ-หา-ลัย by Thai students or พิจารณา which should be pronounced พิ-จา-ระ-นา but is often pronounced พิด-นา by parliamentarians.

I would not go as far as pronouncing these word as you have heard, nor should it be recorded as official. Some people are to lazy to pronounce such a long word, so they shorten it. It accepted in speaking for some group of people, but by no mean is the correct pronunciation. Some people find the way to corrupt The beautiful Thai language.

[DonSena]

Well, it’s interesting to note that the tone rules became as complicated as they are mainly because of historical change. Originally -- particularly in the thirteenth century -- they were much simpler, with a one-on-one correspondence between tone mark and tone. Vietnamese, for instance, features this consistency since the writing system was much more recently devised, using, in fact, the Roman Alphabet as a base from which to start.

The Noss analysis is correct. There actually are six tones, even if the tone rules account only for five. เขา (he/she), ที่ (ordinal prefix) and ไหม/มั้ย (question particle) occur with the unconstricted high tone as described by Noss. They also occur with weak (volumetric) stress. When occurring as complement to (or object of) a preposition, though, เขา occurs with both the rising tone and full-blown normal stress – ของเขา (of him/her, his, hers) -- yet ของ has the unconstricted high tone, not the rising tone. Only if ของ occurs as a noun (thing) does it carry the rising tone.

Some syllables, as Noss also shows, are void of a tonal phoneme. In "thai-language .com," notice the native speaker’s pronunciation of อาคเนย์ and ทนายความ. Both the second syllable of อาคเนย์ and the first of ทนายความ are phonetically sounded with a mid tone; phonemically, however, neither has a tonal phoneme. Notice that, by the tone rules, these toneless syllables should each have the high tone, yet the native speaker does not follow the rules when sounding either of these. The conditions for the existence of the phonemic tone are the co-occurrence of at-least normal stress and at-least medium-short rhythm. Syllables [-คะ-] and [ทะ-] in the two words quoted above occur with weak stress and short rhythm.

[Toffeeman]

Some syllables, as Noss also shows, are void of a tonal phoneme. In "thai-language .com," notice the native speaker’s pronunciation of อาคเนย์ and ทนายความ. Both the second syllable of อาคเนย์ and the first of ทนายความ are phonetically sounded with a mid tone; phonemically, however, neither has a tonal phoneme. Notice that, by the tone rules, these toneless syllables should each have the high tone, yet the native speaker does not follow the rules when sounding either of these. The conditions for the existence of the phonemic tone are the co-occurrence of at-least normal stress and at-least medium-short rhythm. Syllables [-คะ-] and [ทะ-] in the two words quoted above occur with weak stress and short rhythm.

This is my 1st post after reading the forums for a while and I have a question about the above post. I have also noticed that the Thais don't always follow the tones rules. I was listening to a Thai read the word กรุณา (kind) and I noticed he slightly hit the middle syllable 'รุ' with a high tone and then I noticed that it is a high tone according to the rules. So I started saying it with a high tone too but probably saying it too high.

Anyway some friends sniggered at me and said I was being overly precise about my pronunciation and most Thais just say it flat. This has got me thinking along with the above post that if I listen to local Thais and how they say the tones and copy them then I will be more native in my accent but I can foresee a problem as I live in Phuket and the last thing I want is a Phuket or Southern accent. So basically my question is if I don't follow the tone rules but copy native speakers will i get a Southern accent? Does local accent play a part in which rules are ignored?