ศาลาชุมนุม

[David and Bui]

[Isn't it interesting that Google Translate does a great job in rendering German into English, while its ability to translate Thai to English is much more limited.]

[bifftastic]

I was interested in this method when I read the first post. There was, as I remember, an invitation for other forum members to give us their opinions.

They did so, and then it seems that the OP was just defending his original premise that he, or she, has discovered a miracle, and seems to just want to argue with missionary zeal!

That makes it, for me, a lot less interesting.

I will say though, that I disagree with the premise that mistakes are a bad thing in any learning process. Mistakes are there to be learned from. Whilst it is true that children learn their first language in a different way from adults who acquire a second or third, there is a similarity in that children are constantly making mistakes when they learn their mother tongue. Those mistakes are corrected all the time, until the person can form sentences, paragraphs, thoughts, and ideas fluently in their minds and then use them in conversations, debates and writings. This is replicated with adult learning when we try to say something, get it wrong, and are corrected.

Mistakes are an essential part of learning anything, if you don't make them, you will never learn. That, by the way, goes for all aspects of life, not just learning languages!

For instance, it could be regarded as a mistake to assume that you have discovered some kind of holy grail of teaching/learning and that all else is thereby diminished.

If it works, then great, but it won't work for everyone, nothing does.

[Mind]

I will say though, that I disagree with the premise that mistakes are a bad thing in any learning process.

I also think that mistakes are part of the learning process and not a bad thing. In my understandig, this method did not claim that mistakes are bad. They claim that if you repeat pronunciation mistakes over and over, than they can reach a level were the mistakes are sunk so deep in, that you have really bad problems to get rid of them. And if you have no ear for the language, than you can easy let sink your errors in your brain. Also you train your hearing with tons of wrongly spoken words. This can be a reason that it is so hard for adults to learn a second language and reach fluently like a native speaker.

And also, the method is build on making mistakes. You hear two native speakers speak with normal language without having a clue what they say. So you watch them and guess what they say. Is the word that they say when they show you a banana the word for banana, for sweet of for food? So you make mistakes every minute with this method. You only wait with your pronunciation mistakes, till you have an ear for the language and a really good guess how it should sound.

I think that "mai, mai, mai, mai, mai" are such problems. For me and many others it is five times the same word. They claim, that you hear the mai for new or the mai for no in different contexts, and even if you can't hear it in the beginning, in your brain it is a difference. And if you never hear the mai for no in situation when they surely talk about somethink new, your brain will automatic sort it out after a while. But when you speak the mai in the beginning of your learningprocess for no many times wrongly while meaning new, than the brain merge them together, because your brain has no chance to distinguish them.

I think this is the big claim from this method. The brain automaticly works it out if you give it enough time in the beginning. And after giving the brain the time to lay a good foundation for the new language, you easily catch up the time of your long silence period .... they claim.

For my, it sounds like it could work.

Mistakes are there to be learned from. Whilst it is true that children learn their first language in a different way from adults who acquire a second or third, there is a similarity in that children are constantly making mistakes when they learn their mother tongue. Those mistakes are corrected all the time, until the person can form sentences, paragraphs, thoughts, and ideas fluently in their minds and then use them in conversations, debates and writings. This is replicated with adult learning when we try to say something, get it wrong, and are corrected.

Yeah, get corrected. I wish it would be so easy. In my vacation i had some words someone told me, i spoke it, it sounds the same for me, but they told me it was wrong. Mai... Mai.... Wrong... Mai... Mai... Wrong... And i never heard a difference. So the method claims, that you first should train your ear and start speaking after you are able to hear your mistakes. Giving the brain the time to find differences between the five mai.

With best regards,
Mind

[bifftastic]

Yes, it takes time to hear the difference between the tones. As in the tongue twister ไหมใหม่ไม่ไหม้ ใช่ไหม.

At first, I couldn't hear the tones, now I can.

At first, I couldn't pronounce them correctly, now I can.

I pronounced them incorrectly, may times. That didn't stop me from learning how change my pronunciation.

As I said, if 'the method' as you call it, works for you, that's great.

Good luck with it.

[DanR]

They claim that if you repeat pronunciation mistakes over and over, than they can reach a level were the mistakes are sunk so deep in, that you have really bad problems to get rid of them. And if you have no ear for the language, than you can easy let sink your errors in your brain. Also you train your hearing with tons of wrongly spoken words. This can be a reason that it is so hard for adults to learn a second language and reach fluently like a native speaker.

Is there any research which supports this? Because in its absence, it sounds an awful lot like something someone cooked up one night over a few beers.

[Mind]

They claim that if you repeat pronunciation mistakes over and over, than they can reach a level were the mistakes are sunk so deep in, that you have really bad problems to get rid of them. And if you have no ear for the language, than you can easy let sink your errors in your brain. Also you train your hearing with tons of wrongly spoken words. This can be a reason that it is so hard for adults to learn a second language and reach fluently like a native speaker.

Is there any research which supports this? Because in its absence, it sounds an awful lot like something someone cooked up one night over a few beers.

I found this one that goes in this direction:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/25280138/Foss ... cquisition

The reasons for the problems of second language acuisition are not really understood, but the fossilisation and plateau effects are real and nearly all adult language learners suffer from it. Some researchers think that you lay the foundation of fossilisation in the beginning of your learning process.

And for me, the approach of learning the strukture and the sound of language only with hearing native speakers speaking only in their native language, sounds like a possible way to learn it better than the normal language learner. But everyone should choose what he likes. I will try it and will report it.

But i have a question for the ones that understand thai nit noi.

Is the language that they use in this lesson "unnatural" Thai for learning, or is is natural Thai with trying to not use to many words?

Level 2.1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-8mzEM82-M

Level 5-10.1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stkS9FsqXsY

Thank you,
Mind

[simonbournemouth]

If it will enable me to speek fluently after 800 hours listening

Fluent at listening maybe... surely you have to practice speaking to become fluent at speaking or am I missing something here?

[Mind]

If it will enable me to speek fluently after 800 hours listening

Fluent at listening maybe... surely you have to practice speaking to become fluent at speaking or am I missing something here?

No, you missing nothing. The 800 hours listening are the foundation for speaking fluently. This is the time they claim, that you start speaking because of understanding. And yes, you don't speak fluent without speaking and only listening.

I like the blog from Dan, where he document his progress in learning thai with aua:
http://daninbangkok.blogspot.com/2007_0 ... chive.html

And also the blog of bakunin, that tries the same method, but not on aua the whole time:
http://bakunin-learns-thai.blogspot.com/

[Rick Bradford]

The Guardian has an article tody on improving learning retention, including some language-specific tips.

[pensive]

I can't understand why everyone is down on "Mind". He stated his position clearly and responded to arguments in an appropriate manner. It doesn't matter if you think he is misguided - it is his life and he has shown how he is going to spend his life. Arguing with his position will only make you look smaller by comparison.