ศาลาชุมนุม

[Mika]

I looked up คำตาย. So, it's two words combined, right? Dead ตาย + Word คำ. Um. "Word Dead"? The adjective after the noun.
http://www.thai-language.com/id/211488

That is the way of it.
For tones, when you know the alphabet dead and live syllables are important. But if you are not going to bother to learn all the consonants you can do without them. IMO

Thanks. I should really start with the alphabet. I sometimes try to take shortcuts instead of starting at...well...the beginning.

[Mika]

The final syllables are hardly pronounced at all really, they're very cut off and it can be hard to tell the difference between a 'd' sound and a 't'

Yes!

I remember well that while learning by micro via Bangkok-Bonn one of the first corrections my teacher made was the pronunciation of my final stop consonants ก [k], ด [t], and บ [p] (in brackets RTGS transcription of the letter in final position).
Using the term already occuring in this thread, เสด็จ, I was wondering longer for this "Royal Institute made formula" เสด็จ = สะ-เด็ด=sa-det. Making this issue short: I think Tgeezer may have explained well why at least me was stopping to wondering but simply accepting as a "wise" decision.

Concerning Mika and http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KvsPdo1Aogg/S ... AG0456.JPG, eventually "lost in transcription" I would like to add the following story:

I was chatting with a compatriote, he in Bangkok, me in Germany. For transcribing in our chat Thai terms I was using nearly "purest RTGS" while my compatriote used RTGS, but made a compromise in-between transcription and phonetics: he used ก [gk] "as in gkung".

Then he told: "Then I will be in Bangkok"
Me: Sorry, but where is Ban Gkok [บ้าน กอก]?
He: ? BANGKOK, in Thailand!
Me: Ah! Banggkok บางกอก

Yes, know where this is In summary, no transcription is perfect.

So, you thought he was referring to a house/village named Gkok? (<--I think I just ruined your joke while trying to get Thai )

About transcription: you mentioned RTGS. Found it in Wikipedia: Royal Thai General System of Transcription

The d/t/dt issue and RTGS made me wonder about b/p. When a place's name is written with a final "b", are you supposed to pronounce it more like "p"? I'm referring to Tgeezer's earlier post - "There are only six syllable endings in Thai -K,-P, -T, -M, -N,-NG..."

[r2d2]

So, you thought he was referring to a house/village named Gkok? (<--I think I just ruined your joke while trying to get Thai )

Yes - I just was so accomodated to his transcription that I understand his Bangkok automatically as Ban Gkok. No joke, but brains are working in that way.

The d/t/dt issue and RTGS made me wonder about b/p. When a place's name is written with a final "b", are you supposed to pronounce it more like "p"? I'm referring to Tgeezer's earlier post - "There are only six syllable endings in Thai -K,-P, -T, -M, -N,-NG..."

Thank you for asking again. I see that I was too short in my preceeding.

Initial ก [k], ด [d], and บ [b} (in brackets RTGS transcription of the letter in initial position) are "voiced" (and unaspirated) consonants.
They occur in most European languages, written in most instances as g, d, and b.
What does not exist, or what Thai has in addition, are the voiceless (unaspirated) counterparts: ก (g or k?), ต (to tao), and ป (po pla), which render them sometimes a little bit difficult to pronunce by a Farang.
An important point: In most European languages initial k, t, and p letters reflect the aspirated variation of each consonant sound.

To your question, I hope you see that it is not that easy to answer:

By sound, the final stop g/k, d/t, b/p in a Thai syllable is, in theory, voiceless (unaspirated), but "written" in Royal Institutes phonetic alphabet as ก, ด, and บ, i.e. the "voiced letters" in place of the voiceless alternative. This issue was about what I was wondering (short) in my preceding post.

Khun Tgeezer mentioned an example like sad or bad or Bob. bad vs. bat (English). My mother language is not English so that I cannot help you further, but you can try to give yourself answers to these questions:

a) is the /d/ in English 'bad' the same as in, let's say initial 'down'?
b) what differs in the final sound of 'bad' and 'bat'?

made me wonder about b/p. When a place's name is written with a final "b", are you supposed to pronounce it more like "p"?

In doubt more like the final b as in Bob, but apologies, my mother language is not English.

Edit: บ๊อบ, Phonemic Thai บ๊อบ, Royal Thai General System bop, definition Bob [an English given name]
The only issue I was wondering originally, was: Why not:
บ๊อบ, Phonemic Thai บ๊อป, Royal Thai General System bop, definition Bob [an English given name]

[r2d2]

I looked up คำตาย. So, it's two words combined, right? Dead ตาย + Word คำ. Um. "Word Dead"?

Something to remember a live long: คำ = syllable, also with the meaning word, although Thai has even words with more than a single syllable. Proto-Thai had only monosyllabical คำ

In place of dead and live syllables call them better stopped or non-stopped syllables. If so, you have to learn later only that a stopped syllable ends either with a stop consonant (these are k, p, and t only, those we are discussing here), and stopped vowels. Stopped vowels are identical with short vowels.

[Mika]

The d/t/dt issue and RTGS made me wonder about b/p. When a place's name is written with a final "b", are you supposed to pronounce it more like "p"? I'm referring to Tgeezer's earlier post - "There are only six syllable endings in Thai -K,-P, -T, -M, -N,-NG..."

Thank you for asking again. I see that I was too short in my preceeding.

Initial ก [k], ด [d], and บ [b} (in brackets RTGS transcription of the letter in initial position) are "voiced" (and unaspirated) consonants.
They occur in most European languages, written in most instances as g, d, and b.
What does not exist, or what Thai has in addition, are the voiceless (unaspirated) counterparts: ก (g or k?), ต (to tao), and ป (po pla), which render them sometimes a little bit difficult to pronunce by a Farang.
An important point: In most European languages initial k, t, and p letters reflect the aspirated variation of each consonant sound.

To your question, I hope you see that it is not that easy to answer:

By sound, the final stop g/k, d/t, b/p in a Thai syllable is, in theory, voiceless (unaspirated), but "written" in Royal Institutes phonetic alphabet as ก, ด, and บ, i.e. the "voiced letters" in place of the voiceless alternative. This issue was about what I was wondering (short) in my preceding post.

Khun Tgeezer mentioned an example like sad or bad or Bob. bad vs. bat (English). My mother language is not English so that I cannot help you further, but you can try to give yourself answers to these questions:

a) is the /d/ in English 'bad' the same as in, let's say initial 'down'?
b) what differs in the final sound of 'bad' and 'bat'?

made me wonder about b/p. When a place's name is written with a final "b", are you supposed to pronounce it more like "p"?

In doubt more like the final b as in Bob, but apologies, my mother language is not English.

Edit: บ๊อบ, Phonemic Thai บ๊อบ, Royal Thai General System bop, definition Bob [an English given name]
The only issue I was wondering originally, was: Why not:
บ๊อบ, Phonemic Thai บ๊อป, Royal Thai General System bop, definition Bob [an English given name]

Thank you for expounding on the subject of Thai consonants! I now realize there's no simple answer (no shortcuts...).
Oh. And by the way. English is my second language as well.

[r2d2]

The adjective after the noun.

1. SPO: Dek kin khao (Child eats rice)
2. yes, adjective behind noun: dek di kin khao hom (good child eats odorant rice)

[Richard Wordingham]

Initial ก [k], ด [d], and บ [b} (in brackets RTGS transcription of the letter in initial position) are "voiced" (and unaspirated) consonants.

Initial ก [k] is not voiced. Very few Thai dialects have initial /g/.

There is a common pattern whereby /g/ and /p/ may be missing from a system, spoiling a regular array of stops. Thai lacks /g/; Classical Arabic lacks both /g/ and /p/, while having /k/ and /b/.

[r2d2]

What does not exist, or what Thai has in addition, are the voiceless (unaspirated) counterparts: ก (g or k?), ต (to tao), and ป (po pla),

Richard, I wanted to make the issue (or my wording) simple, "ab-using" ก both as voiced and voiceless letter. But thank you for your clarification - although I hoped that nobody would be aware that I was using ก twice. I just had long discussions about "ก is more like German g than German k" (my interpretation: since German k is aspirated [and a 'voiceless k' does not exist ... so you "hear" ก more like a g than a k]). So, thank you again for this clarification.

Edit: Since I'm born in Franconia, I would like to add this short "joke":
We define ourself as follows:
"Frange sind die, die a d von a d ned unnerscheid könne." (Franconian dialect)
"Franken sind die, die ein t von einem d nicht unterscheiden können." (high German)
"Franks are those who cannot discern in-between a t and a d." (English).

Saying: Whatever the letter is - g or k, p or b, d or t - the Franks pronounce it voiced.

Initial ก [k] is not voiced.

Thus, agreed - else than in Franconia

[Mika]

To Tgeezer and r2d2, who most graciously and patiently kept replying to my beginner's questions - and to bifftastic, pensive, Jarvis1000, and Richard Wordingham, who joined in and helped -
I'd like to thank you all again for helping me out, tirelessly explaining Thai pronunciation. You've given me a lot to think about, and I'm grateful. I've saved this thread for future reference in my Evernote's ever-growing "Thai" notebook. I'm going to tackle the website again, starting with...the beginning.

Hugs (don't run away now!),
Mika

[Tgeezer]

Hugs (don't run away now!),
Mika

Don't forget there is more than one way to skin a cat; an engineer and a poet reason differently.
Oh, and thank you for those kind words.