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หา...ไม่

The art and science of translation to or from Thai, with examples

Moderator: acloudmovingby

หา...ไม่

Postby R.E.G. » Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:10 pm

ประวัติของคำ. From RID
คำใดที่บอกว่ามาแต่ภาษาใดนั้น ว่าที่จริงคำนั้น ๆ แทบทั้งสิ้นหาตรงกับภาษาเดิมทีเดียวไม่
Apparently หา...ไม่ just means ไม่ so for translation purposes does that mean that you simply remove หา and replace it with ไม่ from the end of the sentence?
If So: Those words which we say come from another language, almost all of them, do not come directly from the original language at one time,
for information the rest is:
เพราะคำภาษาอื่น ๆ เช่นบาลี สันสกฤต เชมร ที่มาใช้ดาษดื่นในถาษาไทย โดยมากเราลดพยางค์เสียบ้าง เปลียนอักขระเสียบ้าง เปลียนเสียงเสียบ้าง

ดาษดื่น ว. เกลื่อนกลาด
อักขระ น. ตัวหนังสือ
As you probably have guessed when the RID says come from another language they mean come into the dictionary; the words have already been around the block before that.
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Re: หา...ไม่

Postby aanon » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:30 am

R.E.G.: "Apparently หา...ไม่ just means ไม่ so for translation purposes does that mean that you simply remove หา and replace it with ไม่ from the end of the sentence?"

Yes, that would give you the same meaning. หา...ไม่ is more formal-sounding and much more common in writing than in speech.

คำใดที่บอกว่ามาแต่ภาษาใดนั้น ว่าที่จริงคำนั้น ๆ แทบทั้งสิ้นหาตรงกับภาษาเดิมทีเดียวไม่

'Straight' version: With regards to those words which are said to have from [other] languages, in reality almost all such words do not correspond exactly to the original language.

Paraphrasing for simplicity: Very few of the words that are said to have come from other languages carry exactly the same meaning [in Thai] as they do/did in their original language.
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Re: หา...ไม่

Postby David and Bui » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:37 am

คุณอนันต์ and Khun R.E.G.,

I am not sure that the first sentence is referring to meaning, as much as it is to form. Taken in conjunction with the second sentence from the RID, I would render this as follows:

"คำใดที่บอกว่ามาแต่ภาษาใดนั้น ว่าที่จริงคำนั้น ๆ แทบทั้งสิ้นหาตรงกับภาษาเดิมทีเดียวไม่"

Whenever we [the RID authors] indicate that a word originates from another language, we do not mean that such words come into Thai in the exact form as they exist in such other language.

"เพราะคำภาษาอื่น ๆ เช่นบาลี สันสกฤต เชมร ที่มาใช้ดาษดื่นในถาษาไทย โดยมากเราลดพยางค์เสียบ้าง เปลียนอักขระเสียบ้าง เปลียนเสียงเสียบ้าง"

. . . because such words which originate in other languages, for example, Pali, Sanskrit, and Khmer, and which are scatted throughout the Thai lexicon, usually undergo significant transformation by syllable reduction, by changing certain letters and characters, and by alteration of the original sounds.

What do you think?
David in Houston
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Re: หา...ไม่

Postby aanon » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:48 am

Thanks David,

You are correct. I somehow failed to read the whole post.
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Re: หา...ไม่

Postby R.E.G. » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:38 am

[quote="David and Bui"]คุณอนันต์ and Khun R.E.G.,

I am not sure that the first sentence is referring to meaning, as much as it is to form.


Plus the title of the paragraph ประวัติของคำ
You are right because of the second sentence we can see that ไม่ตรงกับภาษาเดิมทีเดียว probably is meant to say not in the same form; but doesn't 'instantaneously' at least imply that the form hasn't altered?
This is in the instructions to the 2525 copy and ตรงกับ does not appear, ตรงกัน เหมือนกัน does, so if it said ตรงกันกับ there would be no doubt.
I continue to look for other examples of หา...ไม่ because in spite of being told and reading often enough that it only means ไม่ I hope to find some examples where it means more; this is not one of those examples, I take it we all agree?
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Re: หา...ไม่

Postby David and Bui » Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:52 am

Here are two more examples from Glenn's dictionary:

http://www.thai-language.com/id/203624
http://www.thai-language.com/id/218443
David in Houston
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Re: หา...ไม่

Postby R.E.G. » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:13 am

Thanks, I have no trouble with removing หา in the first example because I often read ไม่ as referring to the words which precede it so หาไม่ at the end like that just is another way of saying ไม่ to me. When it straddles (คร่อมกับ) a noun or verb it means ไม่ใช่ apparently but there again we did this before หาใช่คนไม่=ไม่ใช่คน. หาพบไม่=ไม่พบ I must say I am getting used to it now, but I can still live without it. As Anon says; a writers thing.
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Re: หา...ไม่

Postby aanon » Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:50 am

Just to pick up on a side issue here, ทีเดียว here is an intensifier (eg. เขาพูดได้ดีทีเดียว = he really speaks quite well).
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Re: หา...ไม่

Postby David and Bui » Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:29 pm

Here is another not-so-obvious negative phrase in Thai "ใช่ว่า" from the magazine today:

บอกแท็กซี่ว่าเป็นแดงด้วยกันก็ไม่ได้ราคาถูกลง สวมเสื้อเหลืองไปซื้ออาหารซีพีก็ใช่ว่าจะได้ส่วนลดเป็นพิเศษ

Try to get a discount from a taxi driver claiming you are a fellow red-shirt -- he won't give it to you. As for those of you wearing yellow shirts, try to see if you can get a special discount from the C.P. company –- you won’t.
David in Houston
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Re: หา...ไม่

Postby R.E.G. » Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:07 pm

aanon wrote:Just to pick up on a side issue here, ทีเดียว here is an intensifier (eg. เขาพูดได้ดีทีเดียว = he really speaks quite well).

Thanks for that, the primary meaning is ทีเดียว ว. ฉับพลัน, ทันที; แท้จริง, เช่น เก็งทีเดียว which fits, should have used the secondary meaning.
So I think that you are right ไม่ตรงกับภาษาเดิมแท้จริง not the same as the original.
Ah I see that David has posted one, when I read it I read ใช่ว่า and forgot the negative meaning. This must have been written by a yellow shirt, bad-mouthing the reds. They wont even help one another.
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