ศาลาชุมนุม

[claude06thailand]

I wonder if it is possible to omit กัน at the end of the following sentence
บ้านหลังนี้กับหลังนั้น หลังไหนสวยกว่ากัน
Thanks in advance for your help !

[Tgeezer]

I wonder if it is possible to omit กัน at the end of the following sentence
บ้านหลังนี้กับหลังนั้น หลังไหนสวยกว่ากัน
Thanks in advance for your help !

กัน ๒ ว. คําประกอบท้ายกริยาของผู้กระทําตั้งแต่ ๒ คนขึ้นไป
แสดงการกระทําร่วมกัน อย่างเดียวกันหรือต่อกัน เช่น
คิดกัน หารือกัน.
There seems little point in it Claude. The situation is บ้าน ๒ หลังปรียบเทียบกัน.
The result is just สวยกว่า there is no verb. However to arrive at a conclusion like this, some verb must have been done mutually, perhaps it shows this.
It sounds odd because the answer is not going to have กัน in it. หลังนี้สวยกว่า(กัน)หลังนั้น, for that reason I would leave it out.

[tach.skypethaiteacher]

I know it is a very late reply indeed but in case you're still checking. Here's my answer

We use กัน when there is more than one subject in the sentence or to imply that.
บ้านหลังนี้กับหลังนั้น หลังไหนสวยกว่ากัน
As you can see from this sentence, there are two subjects, which are; this house and that house.
The role of the word กัน here is to show the relation between the two subjects (compare them together).
However, you can omit it and it can still be understood perfectly (and sound as natural).
It only gives less of the sense that the two subjects are compared or related to each other.

To make it easier to understand, here are more examples.
บ้านหลังนี้กับบ้านหลังนั้นอยู่ใกล้กัน (This house to near that house AND that house is near this house!)
บ้านหลังนี้อยู่ใกล้กับบ้านหลังนั้น <--- There is never กัน here because there is just one subject.

Examples of the word กัน used in other cases;
ฉันกับเขาสูงเหมือนกัน Both he and I are tall.
ฉันกับเขาสูงเท่ากัน He and I are as tall as each other.

In conclusion, every time there is the word กัน, there are always two subjects
and the relation of the two subjects is clearly implied.

[claude06thailand]

I know it is a very late reply indeed but in case you're still checking. Here's my answer

In conclusion, every time there is the word กัน, there are always two subjects
and the relation of the two subjects is clearly implied.

Thank you very much for that clear explanation with good examples !
It is never to late to make a good reply since it will come as a new post and many people will read it.

It is now too late for me to use a "skypethaiteacher" but you really seem to be a good one indeed.
thanks again for your help !

[Tgeezer]

I know it is a very late reply indeed but in case you're still checking. Here's my answer

We use กัน when there is more than one subject in the sentence or to imply that.
บ้านหลังนี้กับหลังนั้น หลังไหนสวยกว่ากัน
As you can see from this sentence, there are two subjects, which are; this house and that house.
The role of the word กัน here is to show the relation between the two subjects (compare them together).
However, you can omit it and it can still be understood perfectly (and sound as natural).
It only gives less of the sense that the two subjects are compared or related to each other.

To make it easier to understand, here are more examples.
บ้านหลังนี้กับบ้านหลังนั้นอยู่ใกล้กัน (This house to near that house AND that house is near this house!)
บ้านหลังนี้อยู่ใกล้กับบ้านหลังนั้น <--- There is never กัน here because there is just one subject.

Examples of the word กัน used in other cases;
ฉันกับเขาสูงเหมือนกัน Both he and I are tall.
ฉันกับเขาสูงเท่ากัน He and I are as tall.

In conclusion, every time there is the word กัน, there are always two subjects
and the relation of the two subjects is clearly implied.

When a question is asked don't you do what you do in English, answer it in the same terms? The question is which house is สวยกว่ากัน : if สวย is treated as a verb then each house is a different verb; one is สวย and the other สวยกว่า. Can กัน apply there?
Q. บ้านหลังนี้กับหลังนั้น หลังไหนสวยกว่ากัน
A. บ้านหลังนี้สวยกว่ากันบ้านหลังนั้น บ้านหลังนี้สวยกว่าบ้านหลังน้้นกัน
These don't look right to me; are they?
บ้านทั้งสองหลังสวยกัน odd sounding because สวย is not a verb, but shows that the two houses share the same attribute.

[tach.skypethaiteacher]

Dear Claude,
Thank you very much And you are right people still seem to look at the reply, at least Tgeezer and you yourself still do hehe

Dear Tgeezer,
As you have expected, both บ้านหลังนี้สวยกว่ากันบ้านหลังนั้น and บ้านหลังนี้สวยกว่าบ้านหลังน้้นกัน sound odd, indeed.
Also บ้านทั้งสองหลังสวยกัน does not make sense in Thai either.
The question is why? let me explain to you.

บ้านหลังนี้กับบ้านหลังนั้น หลังไหนสวยกว่ากัน
Two subjects: This house and that house
(Even though in fact, the subject is only "หลังไหน" which seems to be a singular noun but it does refer to
either one of the house (whichever is more beautiful) so it is as if there were two subjects. )

บ้านหลังนี้สวยกว่าบ้านหลังนั้น
One subject: This house.

So, remember if there is one subject. There is never ever กัน in the sentence. Otherwise, it'd sound odd.
Even if the question has the word กัน, when you reply though, if you think one house is more beautiful than the other.
You say บ้านหลังนี้สวยกว่าบ้านหลังนั้น, no กัน. Unless you want to reply something like, they are as beautiful as each other.
Then, you say บ้านทั้งสองหลังสวยเท่ากัน or บ้านทั้งสองหลังสวยเหมือนกัน (both of them are beautiful).

More examples,
Question--> อาหารไทยกับอาหารฝรั่ง อย่างไหนอร่อยกว่ากัน
Possible answers ->
อาหารไทยอร่อยกว่า
อาหารฝรั่งอร่อยกว่า
อร่อยเท่ากัน
อร่อยพอๆกัน
อร่อยเหมือนกัน
อร่อยทั้งคู่
(note: if you reply, they are both delicious, that is อร่อยเหมือนกัน or อร่อยทั้งคู่.
The person who asks you might go like, I know they're both delicious,
But WHICH ONE is MORE delicious?.. lol)



บ้านทั้งสองหลังสวยกัน
For this sentence above, it does sound weird but not because สวย is an adjective and not a verb.
Please note that ไกล and ใกล้ are also adjectives but we do say ไกลกัน or ใกล้กัน
The problem is the meaning of the adjective you are using. It makes sense to say
near or far from each other but "beautiful to each other?" it sounds weird, doesn't it?
The word you use must be something that can show reciprocal relation between two nouns.

[Tgeezer]

บ้านหลังนี้กับบ้านหลังนั้น หลังไหนสวยกว่ากัน[/color]
Two subjects: This house and that house
(Even though in fact, the subject is only "หลังไหน" which seems to be a singular noun but it does refer to
either one of the house (whichever is more beautiful) so it is as if there were two subjects. )

บ้านหลังนี้สวยกว่าบ้านหลังนั้น
One subject: This house.

It makes sense to say
near or far from each other but "beautiful to each other?" it sounds weird, doesn't it?
The word you use must be something that can show reciprocal relation between two nouns.

Thank you.
I am sure that you are right; it is common for กัน to be tagged on to that question but there is no point whatsoever in doing so in my opinion. The question is the part to be answered and has only has one subject;
Which (one )of the two (is )more beautiful? Adding together must be a uniquely Thai thing.
If you ask a question like this;
This house and that house, which house is the more pretty together?
The answer has to come back; this one is more pretty together, because that was the question.
Do these colours go together.
ใช่สีนี้เข้ากัน
สวย is not an adverb that is why that is strange, ใกล ไกล are adverbs. Even so the question บ้านไหนอยู่ไกลกว่า wouldn't get a กัน from me at this stage. Can you convince me?
I shall never say it until I can justify it.

[tach.skypethaiteacher]

Dear Tgeezer,

กัน here does not mean "together". Maybe this is why you are confused with its usage.
It actually means "to each other" or "than the other", basically showing the relation with the other one that is being compared.
This is more like what it actually implies ---> Which one of the houses is more beautiful than the other? (not beautiful together)
To say together, we say "ด้วยกัน" Sometimes, you might hear "กัน" meaning together but that is the case where ด้วย is omitted.

Also, ไกล and ใกล้ can be either adverbs or adjectives but in my examples, they are adjectives.
Anyway, that is besides the point. I think the problem is that you think กัน means together while it is not.
That is why it would not make sense to you to put "กัน". And true enough, if it meant "together", it really wouldn't make sense.
But บ้านสองหลังนี้อยู่ใกล้กัน means "These two houses are near each other." Makes sense, right? (Remember it doesn't mean together )
If you still have any doubt, feel free to ask

[Tgeezer]

Dear Tgeezer,

กัน here does not mean "together". Maybe this is why you are confused with its usage.
It actually means "to each other" or "than the other", basically showing the relation with the other one that is being compared.
This is more like what it actually implies ---> Which one of the houses is more beautiful than the other? (not beautiful together)
To say together, we say "ด้วยกัน" Sometimes, you might hear "กัน" meaning together but that is the case where ด้วย is omitted.

Also, ไกล and ใกล้ can be either adverbs or adjectives but in my examples, they are adjectives.
Anyway, that is besides the point. I think the problem is that you think กัน means together while it is not.
That is why it would not make sense to you to put "กัน". And true enough, if it meant "together", it really wouldn't make sense.
But บ้านสองหลังนี้อยู่ใกล้กัน means "These two houses are near each other." Makes sense, right? (Remember it doesn't mean together )
If you still have any doubt, feel free to ask

I must say I do admire you tach.skypethaiteacher for sticking with this. Can I just point out that initially you did say that กัน wasn't necessary, so are you making a grammatical point now or justifying what people say?

People say lots of things which aren't necessary and cannot be explained by one person, it needs a committee, they amend the dictionary which the next generation are not taught or don't read, and another committee is needed.

I cannot see what กัน does in บ้านนี้กับบ้านนั้นอะไรสวยกว่ากัน because it is not in the RID(พจนานุกรมฉบับราชบัณฑิตยสถาน) which says: กัน ๒ คำประกอบท้ายกริวาของผู้กระทำตั้งแต่ ๒ คนขึ้นไป แสดงการกระทำรวมกัน อย่างเดียวกัน หรือ ต่อกัน เช่น คิดกัน หารือกัน
I would translate the examples as think together consult together in other words two or more people are doing the same thing. There must be a verb, implied or written.
Maybe the dictionary needs to catch-up but if that is the case then, why is the answer not in the same terms as the question? If กัน is the question then it should be in the answer.

Q.Which house is more beautiful than the other?
A.This house is more beautiful than the other.

Now that is better, but you have already agreed with me, the answer บ้านนี้สวยกว่ากันบ้านนั้น is incorrect. Is that not inconsistent?
How would you define กัน in modern terms in Thai?

[tach.skypethaiteacher]

Dear Tgeezer,

As I have mentioned earlier, sometimes you might see กัน by itself meaning 'together'
but that is the case where 'ด้วยกัน' is implied. Just the word กัน itself is only applied to any situation
where there are two subjects and there's a relation between them. I am sure you have heard of เท่ากัน,
เหมือนกัน, ด้วยกัน, ต่อกัน, etc. And เท่า, เหมือน, ด้วย, ต่อ are not verbs. The word กัน is not necessarily
used with verbs only. The range of the examples in the dictionary is also too narrow.
They did not include all types of usage/examples possible. It is clear that besides VERB+กัน,
there are also other possibilities.

Also, I think it is not true that if there is the word กัน in the question, it has to appear in the answer too
since the subject changes. Whether there should be the word กัน or not, it matters what the subject is.
To be successful at learning languages, you had better copy what the native speakers do.
A lot of things might not be defined by the rules, but that is what languages are all about.
I'd rather choose to use what native speakers use, rather than what the textbook says.
It is commonly known how a textbook language and the natural language can be so different.