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น้ำ - Liquid

Thai words and their origins

Moderator: acloudmovingby

Re: น้ำ - Liquid

Postby theoldman » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:46 am

Hello Expat,
As David pointed out, I don't think "there is any different in the Thai pronunciation of their words for "vinegar" and "orange juice". But, yes, both rather are pronounced "น้าม", not "น้ำ". Hence, น้ามซ่ม (spoken language, not a written one) in both case. If comparing to the different sound between record (v.) and record (N.) in English, there is no such case in Thai. A different tone doesn't make a different meaning in Thai. น้ามซ่ม could mean both orange juice (citrus fruit juice) and vinegar. We only have to guess it from its context.
Anyway, why น้าม, but not in the case of ราม (รำ); อาม (อำ); ทาม (ทำ) etc.?
Again, it's hard to tell why. It's a spoken language which has nothing to do with written language. I mean, we still write น้ำ, but somehow say น้าม. And we write and say รำ, อำ, ทำ but not say ราม, อาม, ทาม. There's no strict rule about this. Or no one really knows what/why we say the way we do. It might be like an English speaker says gonna instead of going to, just because it's easier way to say?
Frankly speaking, if we say, นั้มซ่ม, not น้ามซ่ม, it might sound funny. And if we say ทามใจ in stead of ทัมจัย (ทำใจ - calm/control one's mind), it also sounds funny.
Don't know if this helps or not.
theoldman
 
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:27 am

Re: น้ำ - Liquid

Postby Expat » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:46 am

Hi "theold man"

Many thanks for your comments.

I don't know why, but Thai seems to be confusing with words to describe citrus fruits:
lemon & lime are both "มะนาว" and
grapefruit & pomelo are both "ส้มโอ".

The latter could create a problem for some people. Grapefruit interferes with blood-pressure medication but pomelo apparently doesn't (despite grapefruit being a hybrid of pomelos & oranges). The saving grace is that, unlike grapefruit, pomelos don't appear to be used for their juice or as an added ingredient.

If it were necessary to distinguish between pomelos and grapefruit, how would you do it?

I see that lemon can be distinguished from lime by calling it a "yellow lime".
I thought I'd also seen lemon described as a "foreign" lime (เทศ), but can't find a reference.
Expat
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:05 am

Re: น้ำ - Liquid

Postby theoldman » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:21 am

Hello Expat,

I think, the point is, when it comes to distinguish some similar (if not the same) family, it's so hard, if not impossible. In the old time, we had only มะนาว (lime-with green skin/peel), and didn't have any lemon (with yellow skin), and we mistook lime for lemon (in English).
So did ส้มโอ (pomelo). That time we still didn't have any grapefruit, though we had different kinds of ส้มโอ. The following information is from wiki:
ส้มโอ was called โกร้ยตะลอง (ภาษาเขมร); มะขุน (เหนือ); มะโอ (เหนือ); ลีมาบาลี (มลายู ยะลา); สังอู (กะเหรี่ยง มลายู). มีชื่อสามัญในภาษาอังกฤษว่า Pomelo ซึ่งมีรากศัพท์มาจากภาษาดัตช์ pampelmoose ซึ่งแปลตรงตัวว่า "ส้มที่ลูกเท่าฟักทอง"
So, if it were necessary to distinguish between pomelo and grapefruit, I might call it, ส้มโอ for pomelo and เกรปฟรุต for grapefruit(yes, transliteration). Or I might say ส้มโอเกรปฟรุต (literally means a "grapefruit pomelo"). Sure, it's rather awkward, but nessarary, in case some Thai might not known about a grapefruit yet.
As for what you asked about a foreign lime (มะนาวเทศ), I'm not sure if it's citrus fruits or not but after I did some search I found this: มะนาวเทศ is Chiness Line; Lime Berry (Trephasia trifolia). It is a spiny evergreen shrub (grow it as a dwarf or bonsai). So I don't think it's the same lime ( citrus fruit).
Anyway, the point is, มะนาวเทศ might be one of the solutions to distinguish between lemon and lime.
Do you know there are 197 kinds of bananas in Thailand? And if we had to say them in English, what should we do?
Below are some photos I've found on the internet. Don't know if I could post their links here.

ส้มโอ (ไทย)
Image

Image

Image

Image

มะนาวเทศ
Image
theoldman
 
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:27 am

Re: น้ำ - Liquid

Postby Richard Wordingham » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:09 pm

Expat wrote:I don't know why, but Thai seems to be confusing with words to describe citrus fruits:
lemon & lime are both "มะนาว" and
grapefruit & pomelo are both "ส้มโอ".

The latter could create a problem for some people. Grapefruit interferes with blood-pressure medication but pomelo apparently doesn't (despite grapefruit being a hybrid of pomelos & oranges). The saving grace is that, unlike grapefruit, pomelos don't appear to be used for their juice or as an added ingredient.

It seems that grapefruit doubles the amount of felodipine in the blood, while pomelo increases it by 20% - Different roles of pummelo furanocoumarin and cytochrome P450 3A5*3 polymorphism in the fate and action of felodipine, by Guo LQ1, Chen QY, Wang X, Liu YX, Chu XM, Cao XM, Li JH, Yamazoe Y. To be precise, these are the effects of 250ml of juice. Pigging out on pomelos might not be so safe.

I can't find any numbers for the effects on susceptible statins, such as simvastatin.

Reportedly, some limes have similar effects.

As to Thai having the the same word for 'grapefruit' and 'pomelo', it used to be the case that pomelo could be used to mean 'grapefruit' in English!
Richard Wordingham
 
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Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Stevenage, England

Re: น้ำ - Liquid

Postby Expat » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:11 am

Richard Wordingham wrote:It seems that grapefruit doubles the amount of felodipine in the blood, while pomelo increases it by 20% - Different roles of pummelo furanocoumarin and cytochrome P450 3A5*3 polymorphism in the fate and action of felodipine, by Guo LQ1, Chen QY, Wang X, Liu YX, Chu XM, Cao XM, Li JH, Yamazoe Y. To be precise, these are the effects of 250ml of juice. Pigging out on pomelos might not be so safe.

I can't find any numbers for the effects on susceptible statins, such as simvastatin.
......
As to Thai having the the same word for 'grapefruit' and 'pomelo', it used to be the case that pomelo could be used to mean 'grapefruit' in English!


Many thanks for the info, Richard. My problem with felodipine is that, even on 1/2 the smallest tablet/day, my systolic is down to 85-95 before taking the tablet. If one grapefruit doubles the effective dose, I could have problems!

I don't appear to have any problems with fresh pomelo segments - love them! In my 70+ years, I'd never come across the term "pomelo" until I visited Thailand in 2002 and shared one.

Losartan (an AT1) and Simvastatin are also affected by grapefruit (as are caffeine, codeine, paracetamol and many, many other regular medications). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefrui ... teractions

PS Just read 2 articles re grapefruit vs statins.
One says:
the original studies linking grapefruit ingestion to delayed statin metabolism involved over two quarts of grapefruit juice per day

The other says:
There have been no documented problems with lemons
Expat
 
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:05 am

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