ศาลาชุมนุม

[Tgeezer]

Guys, I've got a point to make about the tones:

The tones are inaccurately described! There is not a rising tone, a falling tone, a low tone, a middle tone and a high tone. Brace yourselves...

There are 3 falling tones, and 2 rising tones! That's the way to think of it, I reckon. The tones start at different pitches and the glissando begins at different points and moves at different speeds; that's the key thing.

So, examples.

แฟน - boy-, girlfriend - ("mid tone") - middle tone, ending in a slight fall, mid-to-a-bit-lower
แตก - to break - ("low tone") - low immediate fall, a punctured tyre, low-to-even-lower
ใช่ - to be - ("falling tone") - extreme immediate fall, high-low
ร้าย - wild, bad - ("high tone") - high tone with a late rise, high-higher
สาย - late - ("rising tone") - extreme immediate rise, low-high

Can't draw on here. But to further describe (imagine these words are drawn on MS paint!):

1st tone: middle, falling at the end, a horizontal line with a late downward kink
2nd tone: low to even lower, diagonally downwards
3rd tone: high to low, smoothly and quite sharply diagonally downwards
4th tone: high to higher, horizontal with a late upward kink, rising at the end
5th tone: low to high, smoothly and quite sharply diagonally upwards

3 falling tones, 2 rising tones.

A lot of people don't know this, me included I am glad to say. I promise you that you will speak quite well enough without this.

[pensive]

Well, I'm surprised that the mid-tone falls. There are two rising tones, yes, but does anyone care? For example, short vowel, rising tone sometimes pronounced with a high tone (the second rising tone). Also, in singing, rising tone is usually replaced with high tone. Falling and low, though, are not merged.

So, can I ask, which is higher in pitch, high tone or falling tone?

[simonbournemouth]

Take a look at the graph on this page:

http://www.thai-language.com/ref/tones

[pensive]

Yes, but I don't believe it.

Specifically, falling tone does not rise at the beginning. Maybe you feel it does, but if you were to analyse the pitch contour, I think you would find that it doesn't.

Similarly, though I am less sure about this, rising tone does not fall first.

High tone is a bit underrepresented as we know there are (at least) three variants, not counting the exaggerated high tone.

But, to keep it simple, you believe that falling tone is higher than high tone?

Thinking about it, though, it is a bit hard to pin down. For example, does ไม่ really fall from a high pitch? Sometimes I think it is spoken with a mid tone.

[simonbournemouth]

Here's an analysis of my voice I made a few years back.



Medium => Low => Falling => High => Rising

It's probably not as accurate as a native speaker, but it wont be far off.

[pensive]

OK, thanks a lot. Voice viewer?

I see that your high tone starts about as high as your falling tone, so I would say that falling tone is not as high as high tone. OK?

There is no evidence, either, that falling tone rises or that rising tone falls. Your falling tone falls a long way so you are clearly not a native, though you are doing very well. Your rising tone rises a lot, too, but I don't know how the natives pronounce it, so I will let you off there (though you should stop posting these rude pictures!).

One last one, with a word like เสีย, do you pronounce the two vowels with different pitches, or do you change pitch in the first one (or the second one)?

Thanks a lot.

[simonbournemouth]

OK, thanks a lot. Voice viewer?

Yes, that's right. Voice Viewer.

One last one, with a word like เสีย, do you pronounce the two vowels with different pitches, or do you change pitch in the first one (or the second one)?

I pronounce it as one syllable, not two. So the pitch starts from the "first vowel" and ends on the "second vowel".

I see that your high tone starts about as high as your falling tone, so I would say that falling tone is not as high as high tone. OK?

My tones shown in the spectogram aren't as accurate as a native. Please take a look at this excellent page Chris has devised:

http://slice-of-thai.com/tones/

[pensive]

Yep, that is different. They are all different from each other. The low tones that rise at the end are "spooky".

Generally, though, it looks as if the falling tone always falls, but the rising tone appears to dip.

[David and Bui]

Do these descriptions of tones also apply to the various Thai dialects?
What about when a native of a region attempts to speak Central/Classical Thai? Is his or her rendition of the Central dialect influenced by his or her native, regional dialect?

[Tgeezer]

Do these descriptions of tones also apply to the various Thai dialects?

They don't.
At the bus station the other day there was a lady using horrible tones, well non standard. Our voice is ours alone. I was considering short and long vowels which are just as important, the other day, when I heard that lady actually, I was at Immigration for four hours so there was time.
สระสั่น ๑ มาตรา I decided was my normal voice of a e i o u , and my ๒ มาตรา I would simply double the time aa ee ii oo uu . I think that I tend to try to do a short vowel which is not necessary at all.
Consistent tones and the vowel length is what matters, people get you very quickly.