ศาลาชุมนุม

[thainongkhai]

Why is the pronunciation of catholic like this
คาทอลิก khaa (M) thaaw (M) lik (L).

I would think the tone of the last syllable is high.

[r2d2]

At the page http://www.thai-language.com/id/143814 I see that the phonemic Thai entry makes reference to the RID as of 1982: คาทอลิก /คา-ทอ-หฺลิก/ {English: Catholic, Roman Catholic}
The ho nam here may cause the low tone in the t-l Enhanced transcript (or vice versa). The current online version of RID does not contain this (or any other) pronunciation guide:

คาทอลิก น. ชื่อนิกายหนึ่งของคริสต์ศาสนา มีพระสันตะปาปาเป็นประมุข เชื่อถือ
ในตรีเอกภาพ คือถือว่า พระบิดา พระบุตร และพระจิต เป็นพระเป็นเจ้า
องค์เดียวกัน พระเยซูมี ๒ สภาวะ คือ สภาวะพระเป็นเจ้า กับ สภาวะ
มนุษย์ ยกย่องแม่พระและนักบุญ มีนักบวช เรียกว่า บาทหลวง,
เรียกเต็มว่า โรมันคาทอลิก. (อ. Catholic, Roman Catholic).

Would read this as คาทอลิก /คา-ทอ-ลิก/ = likH

Could mean that http://www.thai-language.com/id/143814 requires an up-date?!

[David and Bui]

Why is the pronunciation of catholic like this
คาทอลิก khaa (M) thaaw (M) lik (L).

I would think the tone of the last syllable is high.

And, you would have been correct, save for the fact that the Thais really do pronounce the last syllable with a low tone. See, for example, Lexitron: คาทอลิก /kʰāːˑtʰɔ̄ːˑlìk/ [N] Catholic

This cleavage between the written word and the spoken word for many European-sourced words has been troublesome for us learners for a long time. The canonical author of a book on Thai grammar called "Fundamentals of the Thai Language" (หลักภาษาไทย), Kumchai Thonglaw (กำชัย ทองหล่อ) on page 332 of the 2011 printing says (my translation),

"There have been many ways of bringing English words into the Thai language:
1. Those words which reflect the English spelling and the Thai pronunciation follows the Thai spelling. . . . These words include 'London,' 'gram,' liter,' 'foot' . . . .

2. Those which are spelled like the original, but where the pronunciation differs from the written form . . . for example,

เมตร is pronounced เม็ด
ออฟฟิศ is pronounced อ๊อฟฟิศ
เทคนิค is pronounced เท้กนิก or เท้กหนิก
ลอตเตอรี is pronounced ล็อตเตอรี่
ยุโรป is pronounced ยุโหรบ etc. "

and there are seven more categories of written and sound forms of note.

[r2d2]

David, thank you very much for the quotation of Thonglo.

I've checked several examples given by Thonglo. The observation is strange...

Except ยุโรป (no RID term) and เมตร (labelled as French but not English loan) the RID of 1982 seems to give pronunciation guides (in accordance with Thonglo) whereas the online (1999?) version abstains from any pronunciation guide (except the French loan เมตร [เมด] (ฝ. mètre)).

Do you have any idea why the recent RID is so "tight-fisted" with pronunciation guides for English loans?

[David and Bui]

I don't believe that the RID board is "tightfisted," rather, I think that they move with glacial speed. Change does not occur quickly.

The rules for the use of tone indicators for foreign loan words was stated in the Royal Institute's paper on transcription of English words and names to Thai ("หลักเกณฑ์การทับศัพท์ภาษาอังกฤษ" (Rules for Transcribing English Words [into Thai]):
_____________________________________

๕. การใช้เครื่องหมายวรรณยุกต์ การเขียนคำทับศัพท์ ไม่ต้องใส่เครื่องหมายวรรณยุกต์ ยกเว้นในกรณีที่คำนั้นมีเสียงซ้ำกับคำไทย จนทำให้เกิดความสับสน อาจใส่เครื่องหมายวรรณยุกต์ได้ เช่น
The use of tone markers: In transliterating from English to Thai, one need not insert tone markers, except in cases in which such transcribed word replicates the sound of an existing Thai word which might create confusion for the reader. In these cases it is appropriate to use a tone marker for example,

coke = โค้ก
coma = โคม่า
______________________________________

(Presumably, medical doctors would not be able to keep a straight face if they said and wrote "โคมา".)

However, in the case of pronunciation policy and tones, we may be seeing a glimmer of hope. In 1997 Khun Nan pointed out to us that the then recently published "พจนานุกรมคำใหม่ เล่ม๑" (Dictionary of New Words) by the Royal Institute was taking a new position on transcription:

"๖.๑ คำที่ยืมมาจากภาษาต่างประเทศเขียนตามเสียงที่คนไทยส่วนใหญ่ออก . . . "
(6.1 Words which are borrowed from foreign languages are spelled [for the purposes of this dictionary] in the manner that such words are pronounced by most Thai people . . ."

Examples from throughout the dictionary include:

เหรตติ้ง - "rating" (with a falling tone on the final syllable)
ค้อร์ส - "course" (with a high tone)
คัตเอ๊าต์ - "cutout" (with a high tone in the second syllable)
ซิ่ง - " 'cing" (diminutive for "racing", written with a falling tone)
ดิ๊สเครดิต - "discredit" (with a high tone on the first syllable)

I suspect that under prior RID practice, none of these words would have carried tone marks.

This doesn't answer your "why" question, but these facts may give us a hint as to future direction.

[r2d2]

This doesn't answer your "why" question, but these facts may give us a hint as to future direction.

David, perhaps my question "why" was not fully appropriate and I should have asked you for some backgrounds only. You provided us with much more than "some" backgrounds. Thank you very much for these.

Btw, this thread shows very well the limitations of my "own tone rule": Apply tone rules exlusively on phonemic Thai as provided by RID (or should RID be replaced by RI?)! There is one (a phonemic Thai entry for คาทอลิก as of the RID), but this has already the age of 30 years ...

I hope that our discussion can make the "policy" of phonetic entries in t-l Enhanced as of TL.com a little bit clearer, those of the RI we must not discuss further (I have understood your point). Perhaps our short discussion may just provide an answer to the "overall why question" of the thread which can be read "Why is the pronunciation guide of Tl.com for catholic like this คาทอลิก khaa (M) thaaw (M) lik (L)."?

[David and Bui]

The entry in the T-L.com dictionary in this case is not "rule-based". An "exception" was entered to reflect the actual Thai speech pattern.

[thainongkhai]

Thanks for the answers.

Now the spelling is corrected because forgotten ห is added.

คาทอลิก-คาทอหลิก
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.p ... catid=1904.