ศาลาชุมนุม

[Tgeezer]

I've corrected the spelling errors as requested.

You've got to cut me a little slack here after all Thai is not my mother tongue.

Sorry also for omitting any context. The ผ้าปิดตา is actually a blindfold his mother put on him so he would not be able to find his way home from the up-country wat they are travelling to where she will abandon him to the monks.

Father dies, mother gets new husband, you know the routine.

Thanks Pirin, you explained it nicely.

Sorry if it appears as though I am getting at you it is not the case after all you are asking a question.
I am wondering why no one finds ผ้าตัดตา cloth cutting the eyes odd, if it is another way of saying ผ้าปิดตา fair enough, but I don't think that it is.

[simonbournemouth]

I am wondering why no one finds ผ้าตัดตา cloth cutting the eyes odd

ผ้าตัดตา certainly is odd. It should be ผ่าตัดตา.

[Tgeezer]

I am wondering why no one finds ผ้าตัดตา cloth cutting the eyes odd

ผ้าตัดตา certainly is odd. It should be ผ่าตัดตา.

This all started with ผ่าปิดตา and ผ่าตัดตา
From my first post;
"Like Claude I wonder what cut close eyes(sic.) can be, perhaps it is an operation of some sort; cataracts perhaps, but it isn't in my T/E as such."

Now I understand that the first was mis-spelt and the second not, so what does ผ่าตัดตา mean then?
Rather than make me explain, I would rather you pointed out my mistake then supplied the answer, since the mistake was so obvious.

[simonbournemouth]

so what does ผ่าตัดตา mean then?

I would imagine it's some kind of eye surgery.

ผ่าตัด surgery + ตา eye

[Pirin]

1.

Hello again fellows members.

เรื่องผ้าปิดตานั้นแค่ช่วยให้แม่สบายใจขึ้นเอง

Although I'm not really into "grammatical analyzation" as a hobby, in the sentence above I'm assuming that นั้น....เอง contain the clause of the sentence.
What I'm unsure of is where a pause would fall, if any.
Would it be before or after the นั้น?

I'm guessing it's before.

edit. I've just been looking somewhere else and I've found a sentence with an actual pause placed after the นั้น but there was no เอง at the end of that particular sentence.
What I'm wondering now is if the เอง would make a difference in where the pause would be.

p.s This one just in from the missus.

เรื่องผ้าตัดตา นั้น แค่ช่วยให้แม่สบายใจขึ้นเอง

I give up.

edit for spelling errors. Talk about picky.

2.

I've corrected the spelling errors as requested.

You've got to cut me a little slack here after all Thai is not my mother tongue.

Sorry also for omitting any context. The ผ้าปิดตา is actually a blindfold his mother put on him so he would not be able to find his way home from the up-country wat they are travelling to where she will abandon him to the monks.

Father dies, mother gets new husband, you know the routine.

Thanks Pirin, you explained it nicely.

[Tgeezer]

so what does ผ่าตัดตา mean then?

I would imagine it's some kind of eye surgery.

ผ่าตัด surgery + ตา eye

I have just looked up ผ่าตัด I wasn't familiar with it, sorry. I guessed cataract but I suppose it could be anything.

[DonSena]

Hello again fellows members.

เรื่องผ้าปิดตานั้นแค่ช่วยให้แม่สบายใจขึ้นเอง

Although I'm not really into "grammatical analyzation" as a hobby, in the sentence above I'm assuming that นั้น....เอง contain the clause of the sentence.
What I'm unsure of is where a pause would fall, if any.
Would it be before or after the นั้น?

The question of pausing is best seen as a matter of rhythm -- the relative time intervals between the onsets of successive syllables -- whether or not there is vocalization throughout between the starts of the two syllables or not.

เรื่องผ้าปิดตานั้นแค่ช่วยให้แม่สบายใจขึ้นเอง => 'เรื่อง 'ผ้า-ปิด-'ตา: นั้น, แค่ 'ช่วย ให้-'แม่ ส'บาย-'ใจ: ขึ้น เอง

( ' ) indicates normal stress (loudness level); its absence, weak stress. A gap between syllables indicates normal duration from syllable to syllable ( 'เรื่อง 'ผ้า for instance). (-) indicates medium-short duration. Lack of a symbol or gap indicates short duration (ส'บาย for instance); short duration is not itself a rhythm phoneme, but is simply the non-existence of a rhythm phoneme.

(:) is both medium-long duration and sustained stress, so that 'ตา: has normal sustained stress. Sustained stress means that the loudness level is maintained uniformly throughout the syllable. Other syllables are said to have diminishing stress.

(,) indicates long duration and the end of a phonemic clause. (,) separates two successive phonemic clauses that are said to be in close-clause juncture -- they are uttered on separate pitch contours. Try this an analogy from (colloquial) English:
"The weather during late-June here in Phoenix, it's an experience in heat endurance."
Notice that we very momentarily quit talking for just a second or so after the (,); then we launch onto another pitch contour.

In Thai specifcally, there can be only one sustained stress (:) per phonemic clause and that following any (:) all remaining syllables in that same clause are weak stressed. นั้น is a weak-stressed demonstrative postposition to the noun phrase เรื่องผ้าปิดตา.

Both ขึ้น and เอง are weak-stressed postpositons to สบายใจ. ขึ้น and ลง are used to from comparatives when the same noun is being compared to itself at a previous time. ส'บาย-'ใจ: ขึ้น means 'happier' or 'more content' than before.

[Tgeezer]

The question of pausing is best seen as a matter of rhythm -- the relative time intervals between the onsets of successive syllables -- whether or not there is vocalization throughout between the starts of the two syllables or not.

เรื่องผ้าปิดตานั้นแค่ช่วยให้แม่สบายใจขึ้นเอง => 'เรื่อง 'ผ้า-ปิด-'ตา: นั้น, แค่ 'ช่วย ให้-'แม่ ส'บาย-'ใจ: ขึ้น เอง


Notice that we very momentarily quit talking for just a second or so after the (,); then we launch onto another pitch contour.

In Thai specifcally, there can be only one sustained stress (:) per phonemic clause and that following any (:) all remaining syllables in that same clause are weak stressed. นั้น is a weak-stressed demonstrative postposition to the noun phrase เรื่องผ้าปิดตา.

That is very interesting but don't you think that if you know the meaning the gaps and emphasis come about naturally?

I think it is this;
นั่น แค่ให้สบายใจเอง
'That alone gave comfort.'
No comma, but I think that as you say the Thai probably has.
I have translated แค่.. เอง as alone.

So is the topic title correct นั้น...เอง

I have glanced at the dictionary here but no luck.

I hope to provoke a discussion as always.

[DonSena]

The question of pausing is best seen as a matter of rhythm -- the relative time intervals between the onsets of successive syllables -- whether or not there is vocalization throughout between the starts of the two syllables or not.

เรื่องผ้าปิดตานั้นแค่ช่วยให้แม่สบายใจขึ้นเอง => 'เรื่อง 'ผ้า-ปิด-'ตา: นั้น, แค่ 'ช่วย ให้-'แม่ ส'บาย-'ใจ: ขึ้น เอง


Notice that we very momentarily quit talking for just a second or so after the (,); then we launch onto another pitch contour.

In Thai specifcally, there can be only one sustained stress (:) per phonemic clause and that following any (:) all remaining syllables in that same clause are weak stressed. นั้น is a weak-stressed demonstrative postposition to the noun phrase เรื่องผ้าปิดตา.

That is very interesting but don't you think that if you know the meaning the gaps and emphasis come about naturally?

)

Actually, they influence the meaning.
Depending on the "gaps and emphasis,"

ไปไหนดี means either 'Where shall we/I go?" or "Where are you going, Dee?"
ไดกะเวลา means either ""It has to do with time." or "He estimated the time."
ถึงมีนา means either "'Until March." or "There finally are some, Nah." [Nah is a name.]

มีนา itself can mean "March"; "There are fields": and "There are (some), you may like to know [นา]" [นา is a variant of the 2C particle group defined in the paper on the codaphrase -- shown under "References/Grammar."]

The prosodic features of Thai are among the least known, both by native and non-native speakers. Non-native speakers often don't realize why they're important, and native speakers simply internalize them at youth and do not find it necessary to study them.

[Tgeezer]

The question of pausing is best seen as a matter of rhythm -- the relative time intervals between the onsets of successive syllables -- whether or not there is vocalization throughout between the starts of the two syllables or not.

เรื่องผ้าปิดตานั้นแค่ช่วยให้แม่สบายใจขึ้นเอง => 'เรื่อง 'ผ้า-ปิด-'ตา: นั้น, แค่ 'ช่วย ให้-'แม่ ส'บาย-'ใจ: ขึ้น เอง


Notice that we very momentarily quit talking for just a second or so after the (,); then we launch onto another pitch contour.

In Thai specifcally, there can be only one sustained stress (:) per phonemic clause and that following any (:) all remaining syllables in that same clause are weak stressed. นั้น is a weak-stressed demonstrative postposition to the noun phrase เรื่องผ้าปิดตา.

That is very interesting but don't you think that if you know the meaning the gaps and emphasis come about naturally?

)

Actually, they influence the meaning.
Depending on the "gaps and emphasis,"

ไปไหนดี means either 'Where shall we/I go?" or "Where are you going, Dee?"
ไดกะเวลา means either ""It has to do with time." or "He estimated the time."
ถึงมีนา means either "'Until March." or "There finally are some, Nah." [Nah is a name.]

มีนา itself can mean "March"; "There are fields": and "There are (some), you may like to know [นา]" [นา is a variant of the 2C particle group defined in the paper on the codaphrase -- shown under "References/Grammar."]

The prosodic features of Thai are among the least known, both by native and non-native speakers. Non-native speakers often don't realize why they're important, and native speakers simply internalize them at youth and do not find it necessary to study them.

Actually I was referring to this particular post where the issue was the equivalent of a comma ( pause for breath).
Here I don't know whether there should be a pause after the subject, do you?

I am going to let particles grow on me. Isn't เอง a particle?