ศาลาชุมนุม

[insayt]

อังกฤษ

Hi!
Anybody know from where the name has derivd from. Many other western country in Thai is pronounced similar to their respektiv own name.

เยอรมัน yuuhr ra man, สวีเดน sa wee daehn, เดนมาร์ก den maak, ฮอล์แลนด์ haaw laaen and so on, I think you got the point. You can easily hear when pronounced in Thai, but England is different, even though you have บริเตน bri dtaehn and บริเตนใหญ่
bri dtaehn yai.

So I start to think that อังกฤษ is derived from more historical point. I have read about it that it comes from Angleterre, Angler and Anglosax, but there are 2 syllabels อัง = to heat over a fire or similar and กฤษ. The only word I find with กฤษ is พระราชกฤษฎีกา = A Royal Decree.

In the past England was involved very much in Burman war and England actually saved Thailand from the Burmese, but wanted at the same time southern part of Thailand and part of Malaysia but Thailand got away from that. I wander if the past history have something to do with it...or is it just a name as any other, or is it so simple just a word for Anglaise?:-)

ฤ as I understand derived from Pali or Sanskrit.

Angleterre Ang=from the Angler and Le Terre=Earth, Land. Anglerland.

Any one have info, I have search everywhere, but no results?

Peter

[claude06thailand]

Until now, I have thought that อังกฤษ was the approximate way to pronounce English, and I wonder if there could be another origin...
So that England is short for ประเทศอังกฤษ

You have อิงแลนด์ too, used in นิวอิงแลนด์, but not for ประเทศอังกฤษ

What do Native Thais think about it ?

[Rick Bradford]

It must be of fairly ancient origin, surely, and perhaps Pali/Sanskrit, because of the presence of ฤ and ษ

[insayt]

นิวอิงแลนด์
อิงแลนด์

Yes these two it's more normal in a way according to other transliteration of countries even though I never seen these two.

And to make it easy the Thai could easily transcribe Anglais อังแลซ์. So I go for Bradfords idea about some ancient background, because we have นิวอิงแลนด์
อิงแลนด์ and บริเตนใหญ่, so there actually no need for อังกฤษ .

I really don't want to accept that it just a name among others

Peter

[Tgeezer]

นิวอิงแลนด์
อิงแลนด์

Yes these two it's more normal in a way according to other transliteration of countries even though I never seen these two.

And to make it easy the Thai could easily transcribe Anglais อังแลซ์. So I go for Bradfords idea about some ancient background, because we have นิวอิงแลนด์
อิงแลนด์ and บริเตนใหญ่, so there actually no need for อังกฤษ .

I really don't want to accept that it just a name among others

Peter

It is very odd I agree. I read that it is; การเปลียนเสียงและคำให้สะดวกในการออกเสียงภาษาไทย .
I am surprised that English isn't อังฦษม because ฤ is used to say รือ much more than รี ริ I think.

[Eric67]

From the Thai wikipedia page on ภาษาอังกฤษ:

คำว่า อังกฤษ ในภาษาไทย มีที่มาจากคำอ่านของคำว่า Inggeris ในภาษามลายูที่ยืมมาจาก anglais (English) ( /ɑ̃glɛ/ (ช่วยเหลือ • ข้อมูล)) ในภาษาฝรั่งเศส

So apparently it's a loanword from Malay, which in turn come from the French word "anglais"

[insayt]

From the Thai wikipedia page on ภาษาอังกฤษ:

คำว่า อังกฤษ ในภาษาไทย มีที่มาจากคำอ่านของคำว่า Inggeris ในภาษามลายูที่ยืมมาจาก anglais (English) ( /ɑ̃glɛ/ (ช่วยเหลือ • ข้อมูล)) ในภาษาฝรั่งเศส

So apparently it's a loanword from Malay, which in turn come from the French word "anglais"

Very good Eric67, I actually looked at Wikipedia Thai, but too much thai text for me I presume:-)

That explains the ษอ ฤๅษี at the end อังกฤษ. Inggeris (ฤษ=ris (inglais) and then it's not far from Ing to Ang. So one can expect that this name for England or English is far older than names for other country for example in Europe.

Thank you guys!

Peter

[r2d2]

เยอรมัน yuuhr ra man, ...
So I start to think that อังกฤษ is derived from more historical point.
Peter

Being German by myself I find yoe-ra-man already strange enough ... but this is another story (or, by which reason, paracetamol = Parrots eat them all = พาราเซตามอล in Thai ??? whereas the German counterpart Asparin turns out to be แอสไพริน ??? [for all non-German speakers: The trademark of Bayer does not contain any a-umlaut = sara ae = แอ]).

I recall a discussion with Rikker on exactly the point raised by you --- about 5, 6, or so, years ago:

The main issue is that tua ฤ is used exclusively for Sanskrit terms (I'm nearly sure that for Pali it is not used?!). Thus, the Angles left Angeln much too recently (roughly 3000 years too late) to be the cause for a Sanskrit term. In addition สันสกฤต and อังกฤษ are looking so similar that ... Rikker mentioned that the term อังกฤษ was already present in the first printed matter available in Thai letters (first issue of Bangkok Post ??? --- as far as I remember). Rikker, investigating by himself Thai etymology seriously, confirmed that etymology of อังกฤษ = unclear. His assumption, several years ago, was to render "English/England" 'Sanskrit-like' in order to use the term in written contracts either with the UK or France (in the 18th or 19th century).

I guess it was with France ... otherwise something like you-nai-toet ...

Only recalling this old discussion ... eventually Rikker can explain it better than me, and in the light of new scientific results.

[insayt]

Hi R2d2, interesting comment on this matter!

What Eric67 came up with maybe after all is not far away, even if we don’t know for sure I suppose.

If you read the history of Thailand you will find some interesting episodes in which the Malay play a certain role.

Thailand has been attacked many time and the main enemy was as we all know the Burmese. In 1824 just before Rama II died, the the Anglo-Burman war started by the English as a replay on the Burman aggression against the northern border of India.

Within a year the thais was informed about this war and the intensions by the british to invade Kedah in Malaysia and after that even Thailand.

The British had earlier on several occasions tried to get an agreement with Rama II on the right to malayan-states unsuccessfully though. Late in 1825 appointed the British-Indian government an envoy, Captain Henry Burney, who would go to Siam to negotiate on this and other issues of concern.

Meanwhile, the war against Burma not so good and the British wanted to secure supplies for its troops and Siamese neutrality, if not even going to get them actively on the British side.

The first Anglo-Burmese war ended finally with a British victory in 1826 and the conquest of Arakan, Martaban, Tavoy and Tenasserim region.

The initial rapprochement between Siam and the West certainly was not without problems. The language barrier was one of these. At this time it was not a single Siamese speaking any European language and no Europeans could speak Thai. There were only a few descendants of the former Portuguese, who spoke a kind of pidgin-Portuguese.

But they were not useful at this time and when the British arrived in Bangkok, they had to speak English to an interpreter who translated into Malay, which in turn was translated by another interpreter for Thai!

You can not completely exclude the possibility that through this arrangement, some linguistic oddities occurred.

The British and Thai was finally agreed on northern Malaysia with the promise that the British were not occupied Thailand and this was a milestone in the Thai history and a very important agreement.

The interpreter who translated the name of the British (England), used probably Inggeris and a for aThai ear and a bad interpreter, it is not unlikely that it sounded like Ingrit or Angrit!

Well, the story goes on I think, we will see one day maybe we get the whole story.

Peter

[r2d2]

What Eric67 came up with maybe after all is not far away, even if we don’t know for sure I suppose.

Well, the story goes on I think, we will see one day maybe we get the whole story.

Peter

Peter, I hardly wanted more than to add what I know (knowed) concerning the term อังกฤษ ... saying it should be old but not much older than 18th/19th century. It is rendered, obviously, Sanskrit-like but it is no Sanskrit. 6 to 7 years ago etymology was "unclear".

Only a "feeling" I would like to add:

That, "after" Angeln, England, English, IPA \ˈiŋ-glish, ˈiŋ-lish\, Inggeris, the first vowel becomes a (Ankrit) in Thai "again" seems to be too unlikely --- only a feeling, not more.
(Sans[a])krit - (Ang)krit may be a clue. สันสกฤต<--->อังกฤษ ... the so sala is eye-catching... (my suspicion: shall represent the English /sh/).