ศาลาชุมนุม

[chiangmaishrek]

My Thai teacher told me that the word for pen was based on the old pens which had a pointy nib. So when I was adding the word to the "pen" entry on my website (http://lingopolo.com/thai/word/pen) I checked T-L.com for the Thai script and spotted what looks like a mistake here. Isn't a pen (http://www.thai-language.com/id/206485) rather a "crow's beak" (http://www.thai-language.com/id/131216#def5) rather than a "beak making a check-mark, X or cross marks" (http://www.thai-language.com/id/131216#def1)?

[Tgeezer]

My Thai teacher told me that the word for pen was based on the old pens which had a pointy nib. So when I was adding the word to the "pen" entry on my website (http://lingopolo.com/thai/word/pen) I checked T-L.com for the Thai script and spotted what looks like a mistake here. Isn't a pen (http://www.thai-language.com/id/206485) rather a "crow's beak" (http://www.thai-language.com/id/131216#def5) rather than a "beak making a check-mark, X or cross marks" (http://www.thai-language.com/id/131216#def1)?

It is up to you of course, but breaking down nouns into component parts is a mistake. If you can find a word in the dictionary and it has a definition leave it there. This site I know tries to make the association but it is pointless.
ปากกา is not 'mouth crow' it is 'pen' (writing implement). กาชาด is not 'to make a red cross' it is a red cross on a white groud, the symbol of The International Red Cross.

Edit: Sorry, I see what you mean; it does appear that in the link you posted ปากกา is explained in terms of the verb กา.
a cross, is กากบาท (กากะบาท) a symbol in the form of a crow's foot(บาท) + or x .
So you can see if you try to explain every noun it can get confusing.
2nd edit: I have added to the definition of กาชาด. I guess that since it wasn't picked up, no one is reading my posts!

[David and Bui]

[Posting deleted.]

[chiangmaishrek]

I don't read Thai at all, and my etymology of Thai is zero, but I have shown a Thai speaker the article and discussed it with them. According to them, the articles cited are just general. And this Thai speaker reasserts the fact that the word pen is a typical Thai picture meaning "mouth" [of] "crow" based on the old style nib pens. I must admit that if you draw an old-style nib pen it does look remarkably like a bird's beak.

Any native Thai speakers able to confirm this or not? Otherwise, it's the blind leading the blind.

[David and Bui]

Sorry for not being responsive to your needs. I'll delete my posting.

[Tgeezer]

I don't read Thai at all, and my etymology of Thai is zero, but I have shown a Thai speaker the article and discussed it with them. According to them, the articles cited are just general. And this Thai speaker reasserts the fact that the word pen is a typical Thai picture meaning "mouth" [of] "crow" based on the old style nib pens. I must admit that if you draw an old-style nib pen it does look remarkably like a bird's beak.

Any native Thai speakers able to confirm this or not? Otherwise, it's the blind leading the blind.

Naturally everybody feels that because it is rather obvious, but as I said it is controversial. Had David not deleted his post you would have seen the RID encyclopaedia entry starts with ปากกา being used on clay and by Egyptians on papyrus and continues on to 'Waterman' inventing a pen with a reservoir for ink, ink being made from soot water and glue, which is น้ำหมึก in Thai. Does that mean that Thais used หมึก or that ink resembled หมึก ? You can ask any Thai you like but don't ask too many.

My advise was to accept the nouns for what they are; metaphors.

[chiangmaishrek]

I don't understand at all David from Houston why you deleted your posts; I don't personally understand Thai enough to read the articles which were cited, but as I understand from my Thai language helper, they were relevant to the discussion.

It's interesting Tgeezer if indeed the use of the Thai word pen predates the nib pen. I suppose that it would be natural for Thais to think that the word literally means "crows beak" even if it there is evidence that this title predates the nib pen. Even so, a pen would obviously appear like a crows beak even if it was a quill or a point bit of rock in a cave.

I don't think T-L.com is trying to understand fully the etymology of every word. The concrete question is really how to assign the gaa bit of "pen". There are 3 main options I see:
* leave as is, a check-mark, X or cross marks (http://www.thai-language.com/id/131216#def1)
* change to "crow's beak" "crow's beak" (http://www.thai-language.com/id/131216#def5)
* remove any subdivision completely

[David and Bui]

I will re-post the references:

http://www.royin.go.th/upload/246/FileU ... 9_6726.pdf
http://www.royin.go.th/th/knowledge/detail.php?ID=135

[Bryan.the.Scorpio]

I don’t know for sure about the etymology of the word ปากกา, but I would venture to guess the following:

ปากกา was known in the days of yore as ปากไก่ (quill). The Siamese people made their pens from hand-cut goose (or sometimes bird) feathers and called them ปากไก่ perhaps due to the quill nib's resemblance to the beak of a chicken.

Then, quills with metal nibs were invented. The Siamese seemed to like to compare their quills by basing the looks of the quill nibs on those of bird beaks. It is also a Siamese Buddhist belief that crows (who wait in Hell for sinners) have steel beaks. It is thus possible to surmise that after the metal nib quills were invented and used by the Siamese people, they might change from the name ปากไก่ to ปากกา, perhaps due to the fact that the quill’s metal nib dipped in black ink looked pretty much like the beak of a crow.

Another (weak) assumption: the word ปากกา might come from
• ปาก: n. a mouth; a nib of a pen
+
• กา v. (ขีด) to mark, to make a mark, to make a sign, to put a cross on.