ศาลาชุมนุม

[David and Bui]

Over the last several day we have had some very nice, in-depth discussions regarding the understanding and interpretation of Thai sentences. I think perhaps it is time to have another broad discussion about translation. I see translations as composed of several stages:

1. Understanding the sentence or passage in the source language within its context, including its structure;

2. Determine how each word of phrase of the source language sentence or passage is translated into the target language, taking into account the fact that the source lan-guage word or phrase may have multiple meanings or grammatical usages. For com-plex sentences in the source language, the translator may need to analyze the grammar and elements of the source sentence or passage.

3. Rewrite the string of words and phrases in the target language to produce a literal translation; this literal translation should take into account context and grammar ap-propriate word usages, as well as the word order of the target language.

4. Recast the literal translation into a rendering of the target language which conveys the ideas and expression of the source language communication but in the voice and grammar of the target language; the translator may add or delete words or phrases of the literal or restructure entire phrases and clauses to reflect proper or colloquial ex-pression in the milieu of the target language. We can call this “equivalent communica-tion”.

The translator should take into account the register of the communication, i.e., slang or chat-room communications; cartoon bubbles; official or school language; regional expressions; newspaper writing; and, royal communications. Poetry and music lyrics pose their own challenges. A friend says that translating song lyrics is easy; rendering lyrics so that they can be sung with the melody and rhythm is the tough part.

One of the best recent translations I have seen on this site is Khun Pirin’s translation of, ‘อย่าทำให้คนที่ยืนอยู่ข้าง ๆ คุณตอนนี้ เวลานี้ ต้องรู้สึกเป็น "เงา" ของใครบางคนจะดีกว่า เพราะหากวันใดวันหนึ่ง เขาเดินจากคุณไปแล้ว คนที่เสียใจที่สุดคงไม่พ้นคุณนั่นเอง!’

‘Don’t forget to treasure the one who is with you at the moment; otherwise, one day, you might realize that it’s too late for you.’

(Her translation is reminiscent of Bob Seger lyrics “ . . . if you can't be with the one you love, honey, Love the one you're with.”)

On the Thai-language.com site Glenn incorporates both a word by word translation, selecting the sentence- or phrase-appropriate meaning or grammar function, as well an English equivalent communication.

What especially impresses me are the numerous participants in these forums who are not native English speakers but whose English language ability and expression puts most of us native speakers to shame. My hats are off to you!

Any thoughts on the translation process? I would especially like to hear from those of you who do translation for a living or serious hobby.

[Tgeezer]

One of the best recent translations I have seen on this site is Khun Pirin’s translation of, ‘อย่าทำให้คนที่ยืนอยู่ข้าง ๆ คุณตอนนี้ เวลานี้ ต้องรู้สึกเป็น "เงา" ของใครบางคนจะดีกว่า เพราะหากวันใดวันหนึ่ง เขาเดินจากคุณไปแล้ว คนที่เสียใจที่สุดคงไม่พ้นคุณนั่นเอง!’

‘Don’t forget to treasure the one who is with you at the moment; otherwise, one day, you might realize that it’s too late for you.’

(Her translation is reminiscent of Bob Seger lyrics “ . . . if you can't be with the one you love, honey, Love the one you're with.”)

Naturally you expect me to comment although I don't actually care for translation; often I can't find an English word although I think I know the meaning of the whole piece.
I don't agree that the quoted piece is anything like Bob Seger's lyrics, which to me mean, make the best of a bad situation.
Taking a look at this piece in what is an early stage in the process as outlined by you and where I would be happy to leave it.
‘อย่าทำให้คนที่ยืนอยู่ข้าง ๆ คุณตอนนี้ เวลานี้ ต้องรู้สึกเป็น "เงา" ของใครบางคนจะดีกว่า เพราะหากวันใดวันหนึ่ง เขาเดินจากคุณไปแล้ว คนที่เสียใจที่สุดคงไม่พ้นคุณนั่นเอง!’

Don't make the person who stands beside you at this part , now correctly feel is a "shadow" of someone will be better. Because if one day she walks away from you, the person who is sad the most same not pass you yourself.

I hope that the punctuation you have there is correct but the important difference is the จะดีกว่า ends a sentence and the conjunction เพราะ joins two sentences.
As koon Pirin points out the meaning has not substantially changed. I should have looked up นั่นเอง which I just read as; that in itself, a self evident truth. It didn't seem to need คุณ ot me.

If you compare with Toffeeman's translation where the Thai is converted to equivalent words in English it only takes a little flexibility to make those words fit, which is an art in itself ( นั้นเอง?) mean the same.

The " - " marks are superfluous it seems to me, เงา perfectly understandable, it can be used as a complaint about someone who dogs you.

[montyb]

Hi David,
As for my opinion, it’s about “understanding.” Maybe a translator who translates English into Thai got a lot of advantage. There are tons of English-English Dictionaries that are available. Not to mention other useful sources such as encyclopedia or even movies etc. This means he can find the way to “understand” how that English words are used.
As for a translator who tries to translate Thai into English doesn’t find that convenience. All of Thai-English dictionaries that he could acquire are always not enough.

Above all, I still believe that translation is more art than science. And this reminds me of the following story:
There was an accident happened on the road. An American tourist asked a Thai (among ไทยมุง there) who had seen it, “What happened?”
“One car go” he replied and raised his left hand to show its direction.
“One car come” he raised this right hand this time.
“Two car โครม!” he moved the tips of his fingers on the left hand to hit the right hand’s.
“The man is แหง๋กๆๆๆๆ in the car!” he acted to show the sign of spasm.
“oh! I see” said an American.

I believe that he was an artist!

P.S. Who pushed me out here? Nan, Pirin or other Thais here?

[Tgeezer]

Hi David,
As for my opinion, it’s about “understanding.” Maybe a translator who translates English into Thai got a lot of advantage. There are tons of English-English Dictionaries that are available. Not to mention other useful sources such as encyclopedia or even movies etc. This means he can find the way to “understand” how that English words are used.
As for a translator who tries to translate Thai into English doesn’t find that convenience. All of Thai-English dictionaries that he could acquire are always not enough.

Above all, I still believe that translation is more art than science. And this reminds me of the following story:
There was an accident happened on the road. An American tourist asked a Thai (among ไทยมุง there) who had seen it, “What happened?”
“One car go” he replied and raised his left hand to show its direction.
“One car come” he raised this right hand this time.
“Two car โครม!” he moved the tips of his fingers on the left hand to hit the right hand’s.
“The man is แหง๋กๆๆๆๆ in the car!” he acted to show the sign of spasm.
“oh! I see” said an American.

I believe that he was an artist!

P.S. Who pushed me out here? Nan, Pirin or other Thais here?

Well done for getting pushed out here!
Why not stick to this example there is plenty of material in the RID itself to translate however it depend on the Thai speakers using it, similarly the Eng Eng dict. are not that good although more numerous. English dominates because if its ubiquity but that very feature makes it less definitive, because not all English speakers understand English in the same way.
If "เงา" Is short hand for เงาตามตัว it is rather a good relationship which she is threatening to transfer elsewhere; เงาตามตัว (สํา) น. ผู้ที่ไปไหนไปด้วยกันแทบไม่คลาดกันเลย; สิ่งที่เพิ่มขึ้นหรือ ลดลงไปตามกัน เช่น นํ้ามันขึ้นราคา สินค้าอื่น ๆ ก็ขึ้นราคาเป็นเงา

But, if it is her individual feeling of being badly thought of, another interpretation is required, who knows? I think I know, and it makes sense to me because of the syntax; why say "เงา" ของใครบางคน if you mean "เงา"ของคุณ ?
But only the people involved really know for sure.

As in the other translation; does replacing 'may' with อาจ work? Of course it does if you read it as an English sentence and have had enough exposure to English. What about Thai, does anyone know or care if อาจ carries the meaning of 'may' when may is used to state a known fact? Does อาจ...แต่ make sense to you?
Probably it is not important since we all speak English here, and when it gets too difficult as in this case, the answer is to Kick it into the long grass and pretend you've solved it.

[montyb]

Hi Tgeezer
I had just pulled my leg about being pushed by someone but you liteally pull my leg to get involve here.
But I didn’t follow that thread before so I don’t know much about it. And I believe that sometimes we have to kick it into touch. I know that it’s not right. But it’s a Thai way somehow.

[Tgeezer]

Hi Tgeezer
I had just pulled my leg about being pushed by someone but you liteally pull my leg to get involve here.
But I didn’t follow that thread before so I don’t know much about it. And I believe that sometimes we have to kick it into touch. I know that it’s not right. But it’s a Thai way somehow.

I like the Thai way.
A friend of mine played in a competition off 10 as a guest of an important person, he didn't do so well and was gobsmacked when they awarded him the trophy for a net 67. His handicap had been changed to 24 giving him the winning score, it is the Thai way. Nothing is as serious as we tend to make it in the West.
I am not taking this seriously; just want puzzles to have solutions and it is a pain to start and not finish.

[Pirin]

Over the last several day we have had some very nice, in-depth discussions regarding the understanding and interpretation of Thai sentences. I think perhaps it is time to have another broad discussion about translation. I see translations as composed of several stages:

1. Understanding the sentence or passage in the source language within its context, including its structure;

2. Determine how each word of phrase of the source language sentence or passage is translated into the target language, taking into account the fact that the source lan-guage word or phrase may have multiple meanings or grammatical usages. For com-plex sentences in the source language, the translator may need to analyze the grammar and elements of the source sentence or passage.

3. Rewrite the string of words and phrases in the target language to produce a literal translation; this literal translation should take into account context and grammar ap-propriate word usages, as well as the word order of the target language.

4. Recast the literal translation into a rendering of the target language which conveys the ideas and expression of the source language communication but in the voice and grammar of the target language; the translator may add or delete words or phrases of the literal or restructure entire phrases and clauses to reflect proper or colloquial ex-pression in the milieu of the target language. We can call this “equivalent communica-tion”.

The translator should take into account the register of the communication, ...

Any thoughts on the translation process? I would especially like to hear from those of you who do translation for a living or serious hobby.

I do follow each of these steps before getting the translated piece. Here is how I analyzed the sentence before translating it.

‘อย่าทำให้คนที่ยืนอยู่ข้าง ๆ คุณตอนนี้ เวลานี้ ต้องรู้สึกเป็น "เงา" ของใครบางคนจะดีกว่า เพราะหากวันใดวันหนึ่ง เขาเดินจากคุณไปแล้ว คนที่เสียใจที่สุดคงไม่พ้นคุณนั่นเอง!’
"1. Understanding the sentence or passage in the source language within its context, including its structure;"
=>
อย่า..........จะดีกว่า (imprative) + เพราะ (reason) +หาก ......แล้ว (condition) คง(ไม่).....(result)’

[Toffeeman]

It seems to me that David wanted a general discussion of the translation rather than a rehash of other threads.

My thoughts are similar to David's thoughts if I understand the language he uses.

1st I try to do a word for word translation. Working out what all the words means and keeping the same structure and word order as the Thai.
2nd I rearrange the sentence for it to make sense in Eng but still probably not as would say it. This would be called a literal translation
3rd I try to do a free translation. Taking the meaning and substance of the sentence and writing it as we would say it in Eng. This will mean changing some words and inserting some words or maybe an idiom.

I find the 3rd step the hardest when translating from Eng to Thai which I guess is the reason they say that professional translators should always translate into their mother tongue.

[Pirin]

It seems to me that David wanted a general discussion of the translation rather than a rehash of other threads.

My thoughts are similar to David's thoughts if I understand the language he uses.

1st I try to do a word for word translation. Working out what all the words means and keeping the same structure and word order as the Thai.
2nd I rearrange the sentence for it to make sense in Eng but still probably not as would say it. This would be called a literal translation
3rd I try to do a free translation. Taking the meaning and substance of the sentence and writing it as we would say it in Eng. This will mean changing some words and inserting some words or maybe an idiom.

I find the 3rd step the hardest when translating from Eng to Thai which I guess is the reason they say that professional translators should always translate into their mother tongue.

Because I'm a reader of The Theory and Practice of Translation written by Eugene Albert Nida, I interpret Khun David's suggestion differently. That's why I showed what I had done in each of the suggested steps.

This is to show that before I can traslation each word in the sentence, I have to analyze the structure of the whole sentence first. That enables me to understand both the meaning and connotation of the words in the sentence.
(The Theory and Practice of Translation by Eugene Nida)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6409197/Nida- ... ranslation

[claude06thailand]

As a retired professional translator, I confirm Khun Pirin statement :
"that professional translators should always translate into their mother tongue."

A few professional translators may have 2 or more mother tongues, but one of them in generally better than the others.

I think we can say that words are only tools in a translation, and you can use different tools in many ways to get some work done.

In order to translate, you have to understand the facts or situation first, so that your knowledge of the "source language" must be good enough and you may have to master some special field of knowledge (you cannot translate a medical report if you do not know anything about medicine).

Then, if the "target language" is your mother tongue, you should easily find the right words and phrases.

When it comes to literature or poetry, the translator has to be more of an artist and the words will be less important than the idiomatic turns.