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When

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Moderator: acloudmovingby

When

Postby Tingfei » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:38 am

Hi,

ตอนที่ and ขณะที่ both has the meaning of "when",
what's the difference between them ?

By the way, what time is it ?
in Thai is => ขณะนี้เป็นเวลาอาไร ?
Tingfei
 
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Re: When

Postby David and Bui » Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:49 am

At least one native Thai dictionary shows all these phrases as being synonyms:

ตอนนี้ . . . [ADV] now
Syn. ขณะนี้,ตอนนี้,ช่วงนี้,เวลานี้,บัดนี้,ระยะนี้,เดี๋ยวนี้
David in Houston
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Re: When

Postby Tgeezer » Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:23 am

Tingfei wrote:Hi,

ตอนที่ and ขณะที่ both has the meaning of "when",
what's the difference between them ?

By the way, what time is it ?
in Thai is => ขณะนี้เป็นเวลาอาไร ?


The difference will be in how they are used, I have just been told by a friend that ขณะที่ is more formal.

กี่โมงแล้ว means What time is it?

Just for the sake of discussion: I can give my opinion of ขณะนี้เป็นเวลาอะไร assuming that it came from a native speaker.
'a เป็น b' : since 'a' ขณะ and 'b' เวลา are periods of time I would be inclined to say that 'b' was shower time, dinner time, day time etc. but I would think that ตอนนี้ would be more likely than ขณะที่
Tgeezer
 

Re: When

Postby Toffeeman » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:14 pm

Tingfei wrote:Hi,

ตอนที่ and ขณะที่ both has the meaning of "when",
what's the difference between them ?

By the way, what time is it ?
in Thai is => ขณะนี้เป็นเวลาอาไร ?


I would translate ตอนที่ and ขณะที่ as 'while' rather than 'when'.
There are many words for 'when' such as: เวลา ตอน เมื่อ which I would use for talking about a fixed time.
I would use ตอนที่ and ขณะที่ in sentences that focus on the action more than the time.
Eg: While I was taking a shower, my wife went shopping.
ขณะที่อาบน้ำอยู่ ภรรยาพมไปชอปปิง
Toffeeman
 
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Re: When

Postby Tgeezer » Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:20 am

Toffeeman wrote:
Tingfei wrote:Hi,

ตอนที่ and ขณะที่ both has the meaning of "when",
what's the difference between them ?

By the way, what time is it ?
in Thai is => ขณะนี้เป็นเวลาอาไร ?


I would translate ตอนที่ and ขณะที่ as 'while' rather than 'when'.
There are many words for 'when' such as: เวลา ตอน เมื่อ which I would use for talking about a fixed time.
I would use ตอนที่ and ขณะที่ in sentences that focus on the action more than the time.
Eg: While I was taking a shower, my wife went shopping.
ขณะที่อาบน้ำอยู่ ภรรยาพมไปชอปปิง

I think that what you have there is ขณะที่ as a conjunction joining the two activities by showing that they take or took place at the same time, ie. 'when' or 'while'
It could be in the past or future or just be a simple statement couldn't it?
Do you see the verbs อยู่ and ไป as showing that there are two people ภรรยา and ผม ?
I would write ขณะที่ฉันอาบน้ำภรรยาไปซอปปิง as a translation of: When I bathe/bathed, the wife goes/went shopping.

There may well be no answer to my question.
Tgeezer
 

Re: When

Postby Toffeeman » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:31 am

Tgeezer wrote: Do you see the verbs อยู่ and ไป as showing that there are two people ภรรยา and ผม ?
I would write ขณะที่ฉันอาบน้ำภรรยาไปซอปปิง as a translation of: When I bathe/bathed, the wife goes/went shopping.


I am just trying to use less words. It seems to me a Thai would drop the pronoun when it is obvious.
The full version could be: ขณะที่ผมอาบน้ำอยู่ ภรรยาของผมไปซอปปิง
But I dropped the 1st ผม and ของ as unnecessary but I guess I could have dropped the อยู่ as well as you suggest.
Toffeeman
 
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Re: When

Postby Tgeezer » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:51 am

Toffeeman wrote:
Tgeezer wrote: Do you see the verbs อยู่ and ไป as showing that there are two people ภรรยา and ผม ?
I would write ขณะที่ฉันอาบน้ำภรรยาไปซอปปิง as a translation of: When I bathe/bathed, the wife goes/went shopping.


I am just trying to use less words. It seems to me a Thai would drop the pronoun when it is obvious.
The full version could be: ขณะที่ผมอาบน้ำอยู่ ภรรยาของผมไปซอปปิง
But I dropped the 1st ผม and ของ as unnecessary but I guess I could have dropped the อยู่ as well as you suggest.


I think that it is best to set the scene first ผมอาบน้ำ then ภรรยา in the second sentence must be yours.

Talking of keeping it short, Is ขณะที่ผมอาบน้ำ ภรรยาไปซอปปิง missing anything?
It is a narrative in this form and the time is 'when' อยู่ seems extra since you have already set the time.
If not relating a story, answering a question on the 'phone for instance, without "ขณะที่" อยู่ might give the feeling that you are busy or may sound more euphonic I don't know.
I always ask myself if what I see is just verbosity or is actually necessary, I can't help doing this in English too and getting shouted down because it is just familiar speech.
Tgeezer
 

Re: When

Postby pi_choen » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:30 am

what about to use พอ for when

when i arrive.......

พอผมถึง.........
http://www.youtube.com/user/pikoen1
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Re: When

Postby jyajaz » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:18 am

If you put "กำลัง" before verb OR put "อยู่" after verb OR both :) then that verb became v-ing and ขณะที่/ตอนที่ became "while". If you just put verb after ขณะที่/ตอนที่ then it became "when". You can also omit "ที่" in both for "when" and "while".

ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่อ่านหนังสือ - when I read
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่เล่นกีฬา - when I play/do sports
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่ดูหนัง - when I watch a movie

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังอ่านหนังสือ - while I was reading
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่อ่านหนังสืออยู่ - while I was reading
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังอ่านหนังสืออยู่ - while I was reading

ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังเล่นกีฬา - while I was playing/doing sports
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่เล่นกีฬาอยู่ - while I was playing/doing sports
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังเล่นกีฬาอยู่ - while I was playing/doing sports

ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังดูหนัง - while I was watching a movie
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่ดูหนังอยู่ - while I was watching a movie
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังดูหนังอยู่ - while I was watching a movie

but for some sentence ขณะ means only "while" and ตอน means only "when".

ขณะยังเป็นเด็ก - while I was young
ตอนยังเป็นเด็ก - when I was young
jyajaz
 
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Re: When

Postby Tgeezer » Sun Feb 01, 2015 12:34 am

jyajaz wrote:If you put "กำลัง" before verb OR put "อยู่" after verb OR both :) then that verb became v-ing and ขณะที่/ตอนที่ became "while". If you just put verb after ขณะที่/ตอนที่ then it became "when". You can also omit "ที่" in both for "when" and "while".

ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่อ่านหนังสือ - when I read
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่เล่นกีฬา - when I play/do sports
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่ดูหนัง - when I watch a movie

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังอ่านหนังสือ - while I was reading
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่อ่านหนังสืออยู่ - while I was reading
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังอ่านหนังสืออยู่ - while I was reading

ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังเล่นกีฬา - while I was playing/doing sports
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่เล่นกีฬาอยู่ - while I was playing/doing sports
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังเล่นกีฬาอยู่ - while I was playing/doing sports

ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังดูหนัง - while I was watching a movie
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่ดูหนังอยู่ - while I was watching a movie
ขณะ/ขณะที่/ตอน/ตอนที่กำลังดูหนังอยู่ - while I was watching a movie

but for some sentence ขณะ means only "while" and ตอน means only "when".

ขณะยังเป็นเด็ก - while I was young
ตอนยังเป็นเด็ก - when I was young


Are you a native speaker of Thai jyajaz?

My understanding is:
ตอนอาบน้ำ = bath time. ตอนไปตลาด = shopping time. ตอนที่ผมอาบน้ำภรรยาไปตลาด shows that ผม and ภรรยา are occupied doing different things during the same part of the day, doesn't it?
I take ที่ to be a ประพันธสรรพนาม meaning ตอน .
ตอนที่ผมอาบน้ำภรรยาไปตลาด During my bath-time my wife goes shopping. Or, While I bathe my wife goes shopping" or "My bath-time is when my wife goes shopping", I am sure that there are more permutations, none of which need to be reflected in the Thai in my opinion. I think that is the difference between interpretation and translation.
ผมอาบน้ำอยู่ อยู่ follows a verb to show that the verb is taking place now. ตอนผมอาบน้ำ doesn't need it. ผมกำลังอาบน้ำอยู่ภรรยาไปตลาด "I am bathing here, my wife is shopping" or means "While I am now bathing here, my wife is shopping; a lot of redundancy.

My view is that there is no need to make Thai compatible with English unless you are learning English and this is where my priorities and native speakers priorities differ.

I hope that I am not "peeing into wind", the existence of a word like ซอปปิง makes me suspect that I am!

NB. I have interpreted อยู่ as 'here' simply to make a translation, I am more than happy to discuss กำลัง and อยู่ separately.
Tgeezer
 

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