ศาลาชุมนุม

[thais]

I am just starting to learn Thai and have not been able to figure out this word.

ชื่อ (name) is pronounced as "cheuu" with the อ silent.
Is there a rule for a silent final อ?

Steven

[David and Bui]

The full expression of this vowel which is the final sound in a word includes both the " ื " placed above the consonant, and the "อ" which follows the consonant. See http://www.thai-language.com/ref/vowels for a list of vowels and, specifically, "Table 2 Monophthongs", line 8 final two columns.

[thais]

The full expression of this vowel which is the final sound in a word includes both the " ื " placed above the consonant, and the "อ" which follows the consonant. See http://www.thai-language.com/ref/vowels for a list of vowels and, specifically, "Table 2 Monophthongs", line 8 final two columns.

I see, the open syllable has a final อ.
Thanks, David.

Steven

[bifftastic]

It's not a final อ the vowel is สระ อือ both symbols อื and อ are part of that vowel.

[thais]

It's not a final อ the vowel is สระ อือ both symbols อื and อ are part of that vowel.

Yes, that's what I meant but didn't state it correctly. Thanks.

[Richard Wordingham]

Another way of looking at the question is, "Why does the symbol for this vowel incorporate อ in open syllables?". I don't know the answer to this question, but will point out that Lao doesn't incorporate the consonant.

My guess is that it is related to the vowel symbol เ-อ for open syllables. Possibly the อ helps distinguish the vowel from อี in open syllables, while preserving the rule that native syllables have but a single consonant after the vowel. (The sequences for /i:a/ and /ɯːa/ may be interpreted as sort of having two vowels, with ย and อ separating the two vowels.) There's a fair amount of variety in the way the four vowels in the อิ family are written in a related script, and perhaps Thai hasn't always been so clear. Nowadays, there is a problem with computer fonts squeezing the vowels into a small vertical space so that the text can harmonise with the Latin script, but this can't explain the spelling rule.

[thais]

Another way of looking at the question is, "Why does the symbol for this vowel incorporate อ in open syllables?". I don't know the answer to this question, but will point out that Lao doesn't incorporate the consonant.

My guess is that it is related to the vowel symbol เ-อ for open syllables. Possibly the อ helps distinguish the vowel from อี in open syllables, while preserving the rule that native syllables have but a single consonant after the vowel. (The sequences for /i:a/ and /ɯːa/ may be interpreted as sort of having two vowels, with ย and อ separating the two vowels.) There's a fair amount of variety in the way the four vowels in the อิ family are written in a related script, and perhaps Thai hasn't always been so clear. Nowadays, there is a problem with computer fonts squeezing the vowels into a small vertical space so that the text can harmonise with the Latin script, but this can't explain the spelling rule.

The additional อ seems akin to "me" at the end of "programme" in British English.

[bifftastic]

The additional อ seems akin to "me" at the end of "programme" in British English.

I think that one has French roots, as a lot of English words do. The spelling is preserved in British English. American English seems to have removed all the French spellings for some reason

[Thomas]

The additional อ seems akin to "me" at the end of "programme" in British English.

I think that one has French roots, as a lot of English words do. The spelling is preserved in British English. American English seems to have removed all the French spellings for some reason

Programme, program, Programm, programma is considered from the viewpoint of European languages to have classical Greek roots: Pro-Gramma. This view will fit also to French.

[Thomas]

Another way of looking at the question is, "Why does the symbol for this vowel incorporate อ in open syllables?". I don't know the answer to this question, but will point out that Lao doesn't incorporate the consonant.

My guess is that it is related to the vowel symbol เ-อ for open syllables.

I've attached the "sara-list" as published by Kamchai Thonglo.

As you can see (apologies for the low quality of the scan) sara ue_long had, in the days of Thonglo, no additional/final -อ.

My understanding, thus, and I just heard this story several times, is that "final -อ" in an open ue is a very recent spelling reform/agreement.

I do not see any relationship with the spelling of (the "polymorphic") sara oe long or short (according to Thonglo เออ/เออะ) in terms of Lao. I feel in this spelling, as displayed by Thonglo, -อ eventually could indicate hardly anything more than a posited placeholder for a final consonant?! See เลย/loei but เกิด/koet?!